In this thought-provoking podcast episode, the host delves into the concept of masculinity and its roots in the biblical narrative from Genesis. The interviewee passionately emphasizes that understanding masculinity is foundational to the broader themes of "sex god" and "chaos." They argue that this discussion is about uncovering the fundamental truths about human nature and the original design intended for men. The discussion centers on the biblical passage from Genesis that states, "God created them male and female," with a particular focus on the Hebrew word "Zakar," which translates to "the remembering one." Roane and Ben highlight how this word carries a verb connotation related to action. They argue that masculinity can be distilled into one word: "initiate." Masculine individuals are seen as initiators, not just in the physical sense but also in relationships and emotions. Roane acknowledges the common misconception that providing materially for one's family is enough, often leading to neglect of emotional and relational aspects. Additionally, they critique the prevalence of passive men and the anger that can result in women due to these passive dynamics. This episode provides a unique perspective on masculinity, drawing from biblical origins and challenging conventional notions. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on the role of initiation and active engagement in their own lives and relationships, redefining masculinity beyond traditional stereotypes.
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Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God & Chaos podcast. A conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in. Roane back again for another episode I set out never leave that entry to the episode recordings, and I'm sticking to it.
Roane Hunter 0:33
It works man. I think that's what we're doing.
Ben Derrick 0:36
another episode, another episode, another episode. So we were discussing Off mic. There's just been so much happening in each of our lives that sitting down together has been difficult to plan. But here we are, and thank God for it. What I'd like to do before we start into our content, which is going to be I believe, and I use those words selectively revolutionary for people, not only in our culture, but this lesson is literally since the beginning of time, we're going to dig into that. But I'd love to hear you guys you and roe are in the middle of the woods for an intense intensive all weekend with the Samsung society. Nate Larkin, big friend of the podcast, huge supporter of our work, we are his as well. And you guys did some good work. But I'd love for our listener base to be able to hear what that's about.
Roane Hunter 1:24
Man. Yeah, shout out to Nate and the Samson guys. Yeah, they are. They're loading the bus and bringing guys to the middle of nowhere Mississippi, where we do these intensives. I don't know that word. The only reason we use that word is because it's frickin intensive. Just intense. Yeah. But it's man, It's a physical and emotional marathon because we're just digging deep and uncovering stuff, becoming aware. And it's, it's just amazing. This stuff is, it's not that complicated when you begin to collect the dots, and connect the dots and then start correcting the dots. And the thing of it is, man, we've all got brokenness and trauma that runs deep, and so when you get in a circle with other men, you know that that's the that's where healing actually happens. Now, I'm not I'm advocating for therapy, but, yeah, but it's man, there's nothing like connecting on that level. I would say
Ben Derrick 2:37
that one without the other is going to be neutrally speaking, less effective. You need both. You gotta have both. You can't just go to an intense weekend experience and be like, "Oh, man. I'm glad that's out." And you also can't just sit in a room one hour a week for the next five years, making very slow incremental progress you you've got to have both, I find what stops men in particular from going into these types of things is a really deep, intense fear of exposure and doesn't that make a lot of sense? And you're admitting even behind this microphone? it's difficult work. There is some intensity to that. But it isn't the type of intensity that men would assume wouldn't you say like they assume the intensity is that other people are going to judge me? And that's almost not present at all.
Roane Hunter 3:26
Yeah, what we think all know, well, maybe not. You know, we're all natural judges. We're, our harshest critic. And that's our fear that if I get exposed, or if I talk about my, you know, all my good, bad and ugly, that somehow somebody's gonna judge me, they're gonna run out of the room. They're gonna leave. I mean, that that's all our core fear. Is fear of abandonment, fear of rejection. And it's quite the opposite. It's like when, a guy goes to that level of honesty and vulnerability, the very thing that he's most afraid of, is it actually gets love and acceptance, and life change actually happens. When I mean, it's so cool. We get to see it before our eyes over the weekend.
Ben Derrick 4:22
Yeah, so I think it'd be good to explain. I know we've got to move on from this, but the difference between a lot of what we do called coaching weekends, and then intensives it is a different type of work.
Roane Hunter 4:34
Yeah, it is, you know, the the coaching weekends are, man, they're phenomenal. And you know, that whole weekend is just simply about getting guys to begin to even know that they have a story. I always say most men live life by you know, it's kind of like walking into a movie with about 15, 20 minutes left to go and they walk in and They don't know the plot, they don't know the good guy, the bad guy, what's going on, and most men live their lives like that until they hit the wall. And then they Oh, I gotta figure out what's going on. And so deer camp as we affectionately call it, our men's coaching weekend's, is simply introducing a guy into really experiencing possibly for the real, for the first time in his life, actual authentic community, not just teaching about it, but an actual experience. And you know, the interesting thing is that is we, you know, we get a lot of, can I say that? I don't know, let me let me think about how to say this. A lot of church guys, is that? Can I say that? Okay, good. But guys that are involved in church. And you know, they may be in a men's group or Men's Ministry, which is, we need to do a whole episode on that,
Ben Derrick 6:00
well, probably not the two of us, maybe two more neutral parties.
Roane Hunter 6:03
We, yeah, we will have to bring somebody else in for that. But you know, they're part of something. But boy, there's just there's no depth to it. It's usually spiritual bypass and hide behind your Bible passages. And there's just not much to it. And you know, the I always say the way that the church community works is you see a guy on Sunday. And he says, Man, Hey, how are you doing? And you go, man, I'm fine, great, good. See you next Sunday.And that's the depth of most true real, I mean, It's not real, but that's church community, and we're just not doing life together and then the coaching weekends are simply, man, beginning to experience and possibly have the opportunity to begin to do life together. In a real way.
Ben Derrick 7:01
that is the big goal, I think, you know, you said it perfectly. So I'm going to restate it. That's what we do. But for you to say a man goes to a coaching we can in the beginning of the process, I think that's extremely appropriate as a definition. Because usually, we think I've got to figure this out. The first step is actually I've got to talk about this so that we can figure this out. And for those that have been sitting on that deck, as we always call it, it becomes very quickly a "we"process and that's what's so new, and so healing. And I'm really actually thankful that we're bringing up the local church, we both believe in it very much. In its design, we don't believe in it hardly at all, in its current reality, because of how it's missing, quite frankly, how it's missing men. And what we're going to talk about today, we're going to focus on men for one episode, next episode, we're going to be focusing on women. But we're actually going to do, biblically speaking, some corrective teaching over things that are incorrectly stated most often by men in a pulpit, who have a very limited understanding of the biblical narrative, but they have a very broad understanding of their denominations interpretation of our sacred texts. So you and I come from a biblical worldview, I believe that a lot of things that we talked about are universally applicable. We're going to zoom in a little bit, though, on that original story that we believe, explains so very much. So there's one word that we focus on at these deer camps and a lot at our intensives as well, that describes a man and in typical Hebrew fashion, it is so deep and so descriptive, and the teaching that you do and Phil Harden does on this word, it's really, really beautiful. And I want more people to be able to hear it be exposed that teaching and just think about things, especially gender. Let's go there, especially gender in different paradigm, we're making an assertion over these next two episodes. We believe there are two genders, those two genders were designed by God perfectly, and God hasn't more figured out than our current cultural temperature would lead us to believe. So we just have to start there. So if someone is opposed to that, and it triggers them, they can turn the episode off. My hope is though, they would be more curious to that idea. And listen to your explanation over the next few minutes.
Roane Hunter 9:23
You know, this, this episode today, and the next one we're going to do I believe that this is foundational to sex god and chaos, right? Because this is this is getting into the fundamental truth of who we are, and how we're created in the design, the original design, and certainly we're, we are far from it, but the original design, and this you know, this comes from Genesis two you know, God created them male and female and the descriptive word for man in that passage is Zakar, Z-A-K-A-R. And it literally means the remembering one. And it has a verb connotation of "to act." Now, some side that it is to penetrate like a penetrating force, and action and initiation. One of the things I often say, if you could define masculinity in one word, it would simply be initiate, and that would be tied to initiate relationally, and emotionally. I mean men are initiators, will go out and initiate all kinds of illegitimate actions. And we'll go work until we drop and neglect our family. Oh, but we're providing for them. Because that's all they need, right food and shelter, from a father. And so, but it is this idea of initiate and so many men always feel and I often say, you know, we we make a living, we make a living off of passive men and angry women.
Ben Derrick 11:11
I wish that wasn't true, but it is.
Roane Hunter 11:13
It is. And you know that that thread of passivity starts in that same passage in Genesis. Because when when Eve did the deal, you know, where was Adam? Oh, he was standing right there beside her. He could have intervened he could have tackled her. I don't know, there's a lot of things he could have done. But he did nothing. And so that passivity, I believe, is just man it is in the male gene pool. It's in our DNA. And so men have to become aware of their passivity. Now, you know, it's like, you don't, that doesn't mean you go home. And, you know, now while I've been passive, well, now I'm gonna become a tyrant. I'm gonna, I'm gonna pendulums gonna swing all the way. All you know, the passivity thing can often be very subtle. It comes in a lot of different forms. You know, just withdrawing in conversation. Well, heated conversation, especially not being present emotionally. It doesn't just mean that I'm absent, and not engage. I mean, I may be there but Elvis has left the building. I'm bodily present, but but emotionally gone.
Ben Derrick 12:36
I find these days as sitting with more and more men. If you ask them about bourbon and distilleries, man, you better have an hour or two.
Roane Hunter 12:46
Unless they're Baptist. Sorry.
Ben Derrick 12:48
Well, I had to get a scribe to me one time Hey, man, we're badness we don't drink together. We do drink alone.
Roane Hunter 12:58
You always want to take two Baptists fishing with you. Yeah, that's right.
Ben Derrick 13:01
Yeah, that's right. That's right. So when I sit with men, and I ask them about bourbon or, or whatever the hobby is, Bourbon is kind of a hot thing and has been for a couple years. But I will get a lot of conversation, a lot of revealing lot of head knowledge. And then I say, Hey, tell me about, you know, what, what's important to your wife? Give me a little scan of your kids. Like, do you know your kid's heart? It feels very shaming, because it's exposing, but I've been that man. I mean, I've known a lot, quite frankly, about the Bible, a lot more about the Bible and the Baptist denomination than I did about my own wife, My own kids. were proposing today that's broken. So you've used two words in particular that I want to just drill down on those for the next few minutes. Remembering what? if man is the remembering one? What is he supposed to remember?
Roane Hunter 13:51
Yeah, you know, if we are the remembering one, we're also the forgetting one. But but the idea, I think, is that we are to remember God, and we are to act on that relationship. And evidently, it happened pretty quick. Adam must have got busy naming the animals and tending the garden. And he was probably watching ESPN. But he forgot something, something was not right. Because God comes along and says, Adam, this is not good. For you to be alone. Andso something... I can't wait. That's gonna be one of my first questions in heaven. like God, you just did the deal. And now it's already not good. And, and the woman, obviously it's not her fault. She hasn't even shown up yet.
Ben Derrick 14:47
Woah woah woah woah, woah. Alright. So I'm just assuming that the men are still listening.That just shook me to hear you say that. There's so much blame that goes on in a man's life. And we've talked about the Drama Triangle and going victim, but boy that was right on the nose. The woman hasn't even shown up yet. She hasn't even been created yet, in this original story, and already, something's not good inside the man and how he's approaching, being in a, in a perfect place. Wow, that's a daunting thought.
Roane Hunter 15:21
Mm hmm. And, and it appears that the what was not good was that there was no connection. And so God, obviously, is God. And he is very creative, and imaginative, and he comes up with connection. You know, I think most people are familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. You know, it's food, clothing and shelter at the bottom, basic, basic human needs. There's a guy named Dr. Matthew Lieberman. It's in his book called Social. You can also Google it on YouTube. But he's proposed that we need to change that because a human baby cannot live without connection. You can give it all the food, clothing and shelter that you want to, but that baby will die. So maybe connection is a primary need for every human being.
Ben Derrick 16:22
Alright, so just to break this down a little bit, because I believe, let me change that. I know, there are so many men filing in well, less and less each week, but filing into churches and they're hearing, the primary point of connection is going to be God, you need to connect with God, you need to read your Bible more, you need to pray more, you need to give us more money, you need to volunteer more, you need to integrate more into the Western Church effort. And that's all muddy with connecting with God anyway. But you're saying this man, Adam, I think this is where you're saying this man, Adam had a connection with God and in a way that we don't even know. I mean, they're meeting face to face in a perfect environment. And still that relationship, God is saying there's something not good here. And his action that God takes as he initiates is to create a human companion. So that relationship being out of sorts is going to have its effect. Even if you are communing. And I use that word broadly. If you are communing with God, but you're not connected relationally with another human being, there's something still wrong, even God would say that.
Roane Hunter 17:31
Yes, something obviously is something's up. We always say at our men's weekends, i probably said this weekend, I'm sure but you know, the four most dangerous words in the English language are just me and Jesus. Right? And we say that's dangerous, because all that is is a guy that's isolated, disconnected and up in his own head. And I mean, that certainly goes all the way back to Genesis. I mean, what more? How much more could you be connected with God than when it's only you? In the universe, and God, but somehow something was not good?
Ben Derrick 18:18
Yeah, it enters in a little bit of complication. This isn't a theological podcast. But I do want to dig in here a little bit to keep men from being confused and neutered. In that all that we're taught from a very early age is, if we grow up in a religious environment, some of us have not. But those of us that did we were taught, when God is all you have, you realize God is all you need, you know, Seek first the kingdom and everything else is going to be added to you. And my interpretation of that as a young man was if I'm prioritizing anything other than God, it is ungodly, what you're saying and digging into this early story, and I'm wanting to talk about it, because it's a different interpretation, especially for those Christians who may be listening. That is taking those things too far. Apparently, based on the activity of God, seeking first the kingdom doesn't mean: and forsaking everything else.
Roane Hunter 19:15
No, it just won't work. Yeah, it doesn't work. You know, and again, this is the sex god and chaos podcast. And, and I can remember sitting in church in in the middle of my full blown sexual addiction, and, you know, course this was pre 1990. I got into recovery in 1990. And I remember sitting out there thinking, you know, what's wrong with me? And man, I was tuned in I was a reader and I'm trying to figure out how to deal with this thing, like we all have on our own. And I would hear or just, you know, read your Bible more, just pray more. One more time with God or something. And man, I tried that. And I have literally sat with 1000s of men along the way that we, because we all want to try that because the thing that we don't want to do is expose it, because of the shame. And it's like, you know, the, when Adam and Eve did the deal, they ate of the fruit, and then what shows up immediately, as they are over hiding in the bushes, shame. And so this is a story that's been told before. And we continue to live it out with very little help from I'll just say, Bible teachers, because it's just not gonna work. It cures connection.
Ben Derrick 20:52
Yeah, it's just not the way that we normally think about it. Zooming ahead to the life of Jesus, I've always wondered, and haven't received maybe until now a great explanation for that, why Jesus takes this step to initiate connection with other men. As he launches out into speaking of intense, a very intense couple of years in his life. Why did he do that? Well, the man from the pulpit, many of them would explain, Well, it's so that the early church could be established, and the message could spread like that, that was the only way that God could accomplish that.
Roane Hunter 21:24
Well, so they could really get donations and get paid. But that's, that's another podcast.
Ben Derrick 21:29
And then the money man betrays him, Come on, everybody heres the story. But as you're thinking through it, that the idea and I guess, you know, we could riff on this for probably two or three hours, but the main point is, apparently, connection with God is vital. And connection with other people is vital. And you do want to connect with other people in light of your relationship with God, that's extremely important. But you don't need to have one without the other. That's where we get in trouble. That's why you're connecting, remembering God and acting out of that relationship, you're putting them together in that order.
Roane Hunter 22:03
Absolutely. And, you know, so often, I mean, and I'll just use myself, there was a, there was a disturbance in the force of attachment. What I grew up in, there was there was an attachment disturbance, because there was nobody to attach to, and so you attach to things or objects like pornography. And in, you know, part of our humaneness is, is being connected and attached to other human beings. And when we don't have that, we're going to suffer greatly. Even you know, watching pornography, I am watching two people, three people 10 People connect, right. And so it's the deeper longing in every human heart. And that's why we are drawn to it. There's other reasons, but that's certainly part of the appeal. Because we were created by connection, you know, Father, Son, and Spirit in perfect union. Union is convenient, you know, it's all one in the same. And then, you know, two people had to connect for you to show up, no matter how bad they were. There was connection that occurred. And so it's like, we were created by connection, in connection, for connection. And it is just such an essential element in our recovery. Recovering life, but certainly recovery in the sexual brokenness arena, because it's fun- this is fundamental to that part of our life, obviously,
Ben Derrick 23:48
do you have men that sit in your office that say, especially in the presence of their spouse, man, Roane, I just, I don't feel connected? Does that statement ever come up? I've never had that happen.
Roane Hunter 24:01
I've never really well, no, I havem't thought about it. And it's never happened. And it never will.
Ben Derrick 24:08
It's just not something at the top of the masculine mind, which I'd like to talk about that for a second. I find that very in a non judgmental way. I find that very interesting. I don't have that thought. I've been married 22 years, and it's usually my wife that's bringing it up. And she's not wrong, but she always gets there first. What is that?
Roane Hunter 24:30
Man. I think it just goes back to the original design. I mean, the creation you always tell guys and or couples that, you know, Adam, ut men were mostly just fancy dirt. Right? Because that's what it says was used to fashion us. Yeah. And Eve is really the first fully human being because she is born out of the flesh of Adam. And so maybe that's why she's just more emotionally attuned. She's more relationally driven, because she was created for connection. That's why she showed up.
Ben Derrick 25:13
So let's go back to the scene, much has been made about it. But let's go back to this scene where Eve, the woman with we're going to get to next episode is being called into a smaller false story way more dangerous by the enemy, by the serpent. And as we read the story, the man is standing right there, you know, for people who need to look that up, and Eve gave fruit to her husband who was with her. So he's standing right there and doing nothing. And I'll be damned if that doesn't feel so much like some of the most dangerous, desperate, shame filled moments in my story, and I would assume probably yours. What takes us to that place, not Adam. I mean, he, he had a shot and he blew it. Now, it's just a part of how men operate in that chaotic part of our lives. So we would say as we've departed from these two gender, saying two genders, then we've just plunged our society into chaos. And you and I sit in rooms, where we hear the details and the private stories, not the media propaganda, we know that it leads to pain, chaos, suicide, all those things are the destination. We have no influencers on Instagram saying those things right now. And man, that makes me infuriated. So Adam had his chance we're participating in something it has, it's a deep channel in the heart of a man, don't you think men are experiencing that today that receding or the further receding into passivity?
Roane Hunter 26:48
Oh, totally. And certainly our culture promotes it. I mean, you know, there's, there's some good things certainly that needed to happen in the feminist movement. And, you know, then you, you throw in the sexual revolution. And it's like, man, so many norms culturally are changing, have changed. internet pornography has changed the way that we view sex even. And, and so this kind of empowerment of women has created this, I think just a lot of us men are just we're kind of confused, lost, we have no idea what it means to lead our family, which is a dangerous term. I like the idea of is the head of the household, and that's not the way we normally think of it is like banging our fist on the table. And by God, I'm the head of this household. But. I know. I probably did say that. Yeah. But but really the idea of head, they're the kind of the Greek, Hebrew. And when you dig into these translations, it's always pretty fascinating. Because, you know, I think there's mostly men preachers, and they may like preaching it as "I'm the head". But really, what it's saying is that, you know, it's the head of a river. It's kind of the idea of river intimacy. And us men, actually, we set the tone for the whole family. And men always say, that sucks. But somehow God puts it on us as men to set this tone. But when we've not seen it modeled, we have no idea what that looks like. There's really nobody talking about that, again, most mostly what you get in churches, you know, I'm the head and or now today, you know, just, it's all it's feminized, and women are in charge, and so, I just men, men are lost. And certainly, we're gonna gravitate to something that boy, it feels good and we feel strong, and we feel validated when we go to porn, or the other woman. But man it's such poison, and it's such a trap. We don't know it. We're just getting sucked into it. Because we don't have purpose, meaning fulfillment in our lives, and we're just wandering around looking for something.
Ben Derrick 29:29
I've never met a man who was lost and happy about it. You know, they're easily extremely angry in the way that they're medicating that anger. I love the phrase that you use that eroticized rage, it usually trends towards some sort of sexual activity. You know, which is for us as society, especially in light of the feminist movement and things that needed to change. Yeah, absolutely. Man, they needed to change and they haven't, it's not like they're finished changing.
Roane Hunter 29:58
We're just I always say Jesus actually started the feminist movement. when he was an advocate for women, back when women were pieces of property. So yeah, you know, we can thank Jesus for the beginning of the feminist movement. And you know, it may have gone too far.
Ben Derrick 30:19
So let's put this other equation in there that most men that are listening, many men that are listening are probably operating under, they're going to remember their shame. And they're going to act out of that relationship with their shame. I mean, this is just, we're just giving free therapy. Now, we are. This is why when you sit with someone who's done their work, go back and listen to that episode. When you sit with someone who's done their work, one of the first things they're going to start doing is get curious about your story. And also inside of that first hour, reveal some of their own to let you know, it's safe to start talking about your story. Because so many men are acting out, which is another phrase we use a lot, but acting out of their relationship, not with God, not with the created order, not with the one that loves them more than they can possibly understand. They're having a relationship with their shame that leads to hiding and they're acting out of that shame. And when consequence rolls down into their life, primarily from a spouse or people close into their circle, it only further reinforces that shame. This is why I asked the big question, man is the remembering one. Remember what because I don't know if you've had this experience, but I'll be rolling down the interstate, listen to a little Spotify, they have a new feature called well it's not new, but the DJ, that just throws songs your way that you've been listening to. And this one song will pop up and I will instantly go back to a memory of shame. Sometimes it takes me three or four hours to shake that off. Have you ever had that experience?
Roane Hunter 31:54
Yeah, yeah. Or euphoric recall with those songs. Yeah. Yeah. Remember, High School indicting and back seats of cars, or whatever. But
Ben Derrick 32:05
well, I mean, I had an ad an SUV, but you you grew up differently than me.
Roane Hunter 32:11
Actually it was a pickup truck.
Ben Derrick 32:13
Oh, even better, even better. Yes. And I find often that men, when we get extremely dysregulated, we will search for those memories we'll create those experiences that allow us to feel I think a lot of affairs actually start this way. There's something about that woman that reminds me of this thing. And I'd like to remember that more, and participate in that. So where what you're saying, I'm trying to get some clarity on this, where we point our remembering is a very big deal.
Roane Hunter 32:43
Oh, yeah, it's the idea of just you know, remember God Remember his goodness, even with Adam, you know, remember, you know, I've given you life I've created you. And certainly provided everything that he needed. But Adam evidently forgot that he was like his head, you know, naming animals and tending the garden. Something was not good. And so, I think is the idea of like, you know, to remember God, to act on that relationship with him. And relationship with others. It really is the idea of blessing. I always say, you know, next time somebody at church comes up to you and says, Bless you, brother, just look at me and go, Man, what does that mean? And he's gonna look at you and like a deer in the headlights guy. I don't know, I heard the pastor say it, sounds pretty good.
Ben Derrick 33:37
I hope you have a good day. That's what your actually saying.
Roane Hunter 33:40
And it you know, it means to add life to and it's like me and God, our Creator, added life to us. And he asked us, to add life to others, and have life added unto us by others, and swear, you're, we are blessed to be a blessing that that's what it means. And you know, you want to be a life giver, and not a life sucker.
Ben Derrick 34:10
So to give to rather than taking from, here's something that Adam understood, just experientially that God was the source of the blessing. Yeah, he was the source of the connection, the source of the validation. It's something though I feel like I get confused in my own life. I want to make my wife Cammie, the source of the blessing in the source of the validation. And I find when that's going on, and admittedly, behind this microphone, it happens a lot. I'd forgotten this the actual sources because experientially I got them reversed. Before I knew God is the source. I knew High School females as the source. And it's been very difficult even at 44 years old, especially when I get in acute protracted stress. to keep those things straight, how do you how do you help men through that?
Roane Hunter 35:04
Man, I oftentimes, you know, us, men because we don't really know how to do emotions, we haven't been, it hasn't been modeled, we've got no training we have and so we have no value for it. And we put all of our emotional eggs in our in the wife basket. And it's not meant to be that way. We were looking to her for all of our validation, our emotional needs. Basically, what we're doing is, you know, we married mama, that's what we're really doing, gosh. But so many men, you know, that that's where we're at, you know, and, man, that's just really kind of creepy. And it's why, you know, I always even in a couple session, I'm probably gonna get something thrown at me or slapped or hit or have a sword in the corner of my office, a wife is going to pick it up one day and just straight through the heart. And sure, maybe Eva, I don't know. But it's, it's, it's so important for guys to have other relationships. It's like, a marriage. There. It's like a bridge bridge has a weight limit, and it can only hold so much. And we've got to have other bridges, not to other women, that's not gonna end well. But it's, it's to other men connected with other men doing life together. And so we're in session, and in, you know, a guy's just kind of been found out, and he's kind of starting his recovery journey. And you're one of the things I'm just telling them up front is like, Dude, you know, dude is such a versitile word. Rough, my favorite. Well, there's another one that's pretty versatile. Yeah. But I'm looking at, and I'm saying you have got to do this work for you. You cannot do it to try to save your marriage, you cannot do it for your wife. I mean, they will, your wife will benefit greatly. But you've got to do this work for you. Because if somehow you're doing this to save your marriage, and I'll lean up and cuss my hand and like I'm whispering to him. Now, Eva and the wife are sitting in the session. And I will say something like, Dude, I don't know if you know this or not, but you know, women, they don't act right. And the wife's looking at me like, oh, my gosh, I do. I'm perfect. Yeah, I'm like, you know. It's like, you know, real women actually have PMS. And they have periods and, and they then they say things when they're stressed. And you know, all all the above. But it's like, it's just women are human. And we've been living in fantasy lala land. And if I'm doing my work, if I'm doing my recovery, there's only one thing that you want to have as your goal is, I want to be a better man. I want to be the man that God created me to be. Because then I'm beginning to figure out you know, how to regulate my emotions, regardless of going Mama, and my wife.
Ben Derrick 38:26
I love your description of the bridge, and that, you know, our spouses. Anyway, even if we're not married interaction with the opposite sex. They feel that burden, you're putting too great of a burden on me. A mistake that I see made often is men will they'll come in complaining about lack of sex. And the spouse is like, yeah, because that's too large of a burden to put on me because it isn't about sex. And I can feel that when we're in bed together. You're asking me to validate you as a man. And that is a disgusting feeling. Because they're not designed for it. You know, we say often that manhood is bestowed by other men. That's why that point of connection is so important. And I think nobody can remind a man to remember the relationship with God like another man, because we're in a position of acceptance when we're with other men that we're just not in when we're with women. There's too much other stuff involved in that relationship. So I primarily see that the women are quicker at pointing it out, and they're often nothing wrong. Yeah. But they can point out the problem, but they cannot provide the solution. In my opinion.
Roane Hunter 39:38
Totally. And that's the the idea of like, you know, the relationship with others, you know, to remember God to act on that relationship, and certainly your relationship with Eve. And then relationship with others and it is so essential that we have that as men, because our wives just get worn out. You know, I sit with it. all the time, you know, the husband's not going to church or he's hunting every weekend. And the wife is I mean, it's so inevitable, she is going to start, you know, we got to go to church, you can't go hunting this weekend and, and then he's sitting there. She's so controlling, she won't let me go hunting and he's just going victim. And I'm just like, Dude, she's just doing what she was designed and created to do. And be, you get kick your butt in gear, this isn't about her at all.
Ben Derrick 40:33
And then they filel into church, the man files into church.
Roane Hunter 40:36
And then it's like, what am I? Why am I not in the woods?
Ben Derrick 40:40
Why did I agree to this? You know, thankfully, I do see and if they're, the odds are pretty slim. But if there's a pastor listening to this, he's probably irate at the moment. I do see some pastors. And I think this is a movement of God waking up to this fact. And they're selectively becoming vulnerable on Sunday mornings, and they're getting a gigantic amount of credit for it, which kind of frustrates me, you know.
Roane Hunter 41:03
you did that for a lot of Sunday mornings. You'll hear about one dude, one one Sunday.
Ben Derrick 41:12
I'm having trouble with my wife. Yeah, like, I just filleted myself for a decade, in front of groups of people. But thankfully, that is beginning to correct. But in the large majority of religious gatherings, you're just not going to find a man who's done his work as we would describe it. And listen, I think it's important for us to say to the men that are listening, there is hope. Once you get out of the bushes, you commit to not hide, you start to reveal, and you start to engage with other men. I mean, for for most of my adult life, what I have seen is the path to God goes through other men. That's not something we're teaching inside of Christian communities. But that's what I see happening repeatedly. Unfortunately, we're having to get outside of the confines of the Western Christian Church, to let that equation have its effect. But we're doing more and more and more of it. So for a man to remember, God, he must first have a relationship with God, and we find the first couple of years are helping that man Correct. His beliefs, interpretation and experience of God, that's a big part of this, right?
Roane Hunter 42:22
Mm hmm. It's so essential. I mean, this recovery thing. I mean, it's a it's a spiritual journey. And we are spiritual beings, that's just part of the deal. And so the god piece in understanding, you know, kind of the foundational truth of actually who we are as humans, you know, it might be important.
Ben Derrick 42:44
So to be able to ask a man, I know, we're running short on time here in this episode, but to ask a man or to ask yourself, as you're listening, am I remembering my relationship with God? And are my actions anchored in that relationship? Pardon the religious term. But how would you say that better?
Roane Hunter 43:04
Yeah, I think it's just, man, if I'm, if I'm going to be the man that God created me to be, there's, the only way I'm gonna get there is, is I've got to have other men that are headed in the same direction that get this stuff. And we're just simply doing life together. Because, you know, our wives, they don't understand what's going on in our crazy man hearts and man heads. They, they think different than we do. T Yes. I mean, it's just, but you know, we just, we go to her. And you know, she's just got a different way to look at the world. And I mean, even her brain structure is different than ours. And so it might be helpful to get in a relationship, as you know, just building a team of men that are kind of like me, and we all are to the core, right. And Jesus certainly modeled it. I mean, I don't I guess I don't I miss the part in scripture where Jesus stood on the corner and said, Right here is where we're gonna build First Baptist Church of nowhere Mississippi, but it must be in there. What we keep doing, I think he walked around, kind of talking about life, telling stories, with like, 12 Dudes, I don't know.
Ben Derrick 44:33
I have this dream in my head that I hope that I'll have a chance to pursue before it's all over. But even in our area, if you take the average debt structure of churches in our area, you're talking what $10 million.
Roane Hunter 44:48
Here in Mississippi, it's probably 100 million.
Ben Derrick 44:51
So you know, just on average, yeah, let's just say we're lowball it at 10. What if we had a group of people that said we're going to invest Just $10 million in connecting men with other men so that they can begin or remember again, their relationship with God. And all of their actions flow out of that we're going to replicate Zakar. And we're going to put $10 million behind that the world would begin to pay attention.
Roane Hunter 45:21
Well, the the whole world would change, and we'd never have to worry about evangelism, because actually, Christian men would be very attractive people and people would go, man, oh, I don't know what that guy's got, but I want some.
Ben Derrick 45:37
Yeah, what it is being I think what we're describing just to bring it full circle is, men would begin, the more they Zakar, the more they separate themselves out of the chaos. And they don't just run from the chaos, because when you try to outrun chaos, you just land inmore, you heal out of the chaos, and you start to engage in community. It's a beautiful picture. If we've seen it, we see it happen or repeat. And I would say just as we're closing this out, a huge part of the reason why this podcast was started in the beginning, is because you and Eva were just sick and tired of trying to impact chaos, one hour, one life at a time. And let's get this message out there in a book, let's get it out there behind microphones, and maybe more people will hear. It's possible to exit from the chaos. There's a particular way to do it, there is a strategy, and it's been working, of all places. It's been working in Central Mississippi, and God is using these microphones to spread this message literally we can say now, across the world.
Roane Hunter 46:44
It is kind of crazy. When you think about that. And you know, we're looking at the numbers and the growth of the podcast. It's kind of surreal. But I don't know, you know, we're in the buckle belt of the buckle of the Bible Belt. And maybe God's up to something different. Maybe Maybe God's just gonna start using ordinary everyday people, rather than the paid spokesman. I don't know. Maybe God's you know, he has a history of doing something new and something different.
Ben Derrick 47:20
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