In this episode, Terrell Clemmons discusses the perspective of women and their struggles with love and sexuality. She highlights how the culture often equates sex with love, leading many women to give themselves away sexually in search of emotional fulfillment. The availability of contraception has further separated sex from its natural consequence of pregnancy, reinforcing the idea that sex is the way to meet emotional needs. However, these actions do not ultimately satisfy needs, but rather increase them, leading to a heartbreaking cycle of addiction and emptiness.
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Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God and Chaos podcast, a conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in.
Roane Hunter 0:27
Man, we are excited to have our guest today. One of the things that we wanted to make a part of this podcast is just a bigger discussion around sex and sexuality from a broader perspective, from really a cultural perspective. And certainly from a faith perspective. It's one of those things, we talked about it on the podcast, that there's so much distorted thinking around sex. And it's not just out there in the world. I always say that most everything around sex and sexuality in the world is backwards and upside down. And then you get into the church into faith communities and there's a whole nother -- another set of distorted thinking that kind of permeates church and faith communities. And so having discussions from a broader perspective, and how this stuff plays out, because it is what affects our individual lives. We cannot be in the world today and not be infected by the crazy sexual atmosphere that permeates culture. And so, man, excited to have our guest. Terrell Clemmons is the deputy editor with Salvo Magazine. I can't say enough good things about that magazine. They take kind of the issues of the day, everything from just society, science, sex, sexuality, and the articles and the writers are deep thinkers. And it's it's a it's it's not kind of Christian light. It's certainly coming from a biblical worldview. But boy, they go deep. And it makes you think deeper about these issues. So Terrell, we're so excited to have you on the podcast today. Thanks for taking the time to be with us.
Terrell Clemmons 2:38
Well, of course, thank you. Happy to be here.
Roane Hunter 2:41
Yeah, and so if you would just kind of give us our listeners a little background of just who you are, how you wound up doing what you do now. And I do know that you went to Clemson and, you know, we're in SEC football territory. So we're not going to talk about football. But I do, I do know that you're a Clemson grad. And so just tell us a little bit about your own story.
Terrell Clemmons 3:16
Well, sure, and maybe I'll start with since you had me, you invited me here because of Salvo I'll start with with how Salvo came about and then how I came into the Salvo mix. Touchstone Magazine was launched in in the 1980s to focus on those areas that Christianity, the three branches of Christianity have in common: Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. And the tagline of that is A Journal of Mere Christianity. So you might hear the CS Lewis in there, it's about it's kind of a big think Christian journal, thinking intellectually about the faith. And then Salvo was launched out of that effort in 2006 to reach a younger demographic, like the college age, 20-somethings, even maybe 11th and 12th graders. And it really grew out of an effort to take up the science versus religion debate. That was the the era of the new atheists who were really attacking Christianity and faith in general. But Salvo decided not to just take up science and religion, but really science, sex and society, which is kind of our tagline. Because we believe that there is design that is evident and knowable in the natural world, knowable to science, there's design to our sexuality and the way that we're made, and there's really design to the way that a society ought to be ordered, and that does connect with with sexuality and marriage and sexuality. So I came -- now going on to my story, I guess I grew up in -- well, I grew up in South Carolina. I'm from the Bible Belt too. And where football is kind of next to religion. But um, I'm friendly with my football talking. But anyway, so I grew up in a church- going home and in, in the Bible Belt in, in a culture, small town where we pretty much everybody went to church. And so that is worth something. And I got that I have very good parents in a nice, safe growing up environment. And I never really, I mean, since it wasn't challenged, it was just kind of part of the culture. I never really gave much attention to it until I got married. And I had two small children and life got really kind of difficult. And I set out to ask the question of myself, really, Do I just believe this thing because I was raised to believe it, it was the culture that I grew up in, or is it really true? Are there good reasons to believe that the Christian faith is true? And I took about, I don't know, several months, I had two small kids at the time. But I set out to research. Are there good reasons to believe this is true. And I became convinced that actually there really are. And at that point, I came, became convinced the Bible was, was a historical record that was true. And that it communicated a fate that was true. So then I read the whole thing. Took me about a year. I read the whole thing front to back, and was like, Whoa, it really changed my view of the whole world, and of my life. And then, and I was an at home mom at the time. But as my kids got older and went to school, I started writing. I became, I came convinced that Christianity was true, really through apologetics. And I started writing on apologetics, maybe early 2000s. And then I found Salvo. Salvo was launched in '06, I found it in '07. And it really clicked with the way that I think. And I started writing for it, then I was asked to write on sexuality in a regular column in Salvo on sex. And to be honest, I kind of didn't want to do that, really. But then as a writer, you know, kind of a new writer, I thought, if I'm being asked to write something regularly, I should really take that opportunity. And I did. And that was really when I started learning more about really the intellect -- I don't wabt to say intellectual, but about the biblical view of how we are made, and sexuality and male and female, and the the biblical principle that that marriage is really the context for sexual expression. And at this time, I was also married, and I'm not married anymore, but just because my I lost my husband in 2020. He, he died in 2020. So yeah, I'm still kind of adjusting to being a single in a world that feels like couples, but, but I just wanted to say, what I when I say I was married, that's why and we were married 30 some years. And so I was working through learning about sexuality and the biblical picture of it. And then navigating and processing what I'm seeing in the culture and writing about, and also seeing as I raise my children in a very highly sexualized culture. And so I've learned a lot that way. And then also, you know, some of my journey has included wrestling through the differences between male and female as a married wife, married to a good man, but we were both broken people ourselves, and working through the way that marriage stirs up those deeper things that are within us, with our sexuality and everything else. And so that's really kind of how I came to be where I am. And then when I lost my husband in 2020, I'd been writing for Salvo since almost the beginning. And that was when the Jim Kushner, who has been the executive editor for Salvo a long time, asked me if I wanted to take on some editorial responsibilities and come in and he's working his way, you know, toward other things, and I'm working my way toward or into being editor of Salvo. So that's how that's kind of a long answer to who I am and how I came to where I am today.
Roane Hunter 9:17
Oh, wow, yep. Thank you. I certainly did not know the piece of you, your husband passing and certainly, knowing that, that that has been a process, just the grief process. All that and so yeah, thank you for sharing just part of your story. And so, let's let's jump into the, to the topic of you know, sex and sexuality from a faith perspective. You know, the title of our book, our podcast, you know, comes from the book. The book is called, Sex, God, and the Chaos of Betrayal, The Couples Roadmap of Hope and Healing, recovery from infidelity, affairs, pornography and sexual addiction. And certainly always say we I believe we're kind of like undertakers because this thing affects just about every coupleship today. And so much of it, you know, the rise of you know, high speed internet pornography, all of the hookup apps, everything that's going on in our culture, and it's just have had a detrimental destructive effect on certainly marriage and families. In the latest issue of Salvo you you wrote a review of Mary Eberstadt's book Adam and Eve After the Pill. And I love what you said were Alexander Solzhenitsyn summed up the 20 century in four words, men have forgotten God, and she sums it up in her book, that in the 21st century, men are at war with God. And then you go on to say sex is arguably the most powerful force on earth, bullets and bombs can destroy life, but only the sexual union of a man and woman can create it. God took pains to tell us that the way to prosperity and blessing was through observing his statutes. But revolutionaries threw caution to the wind, too few of us understood what was happening, let alone resisted. And now we are all reaping the whirlwind. And so this cultural chaos around sex is so problematic. And it you know, in so many couples that we work with, I mean, we're Christian counselors, but like the question of like, what is healthy sexuality? And as you said, we believe that God is a God of order, and there is a design to creation and how life works. And it's why you know, sex outside of the created design creates so many issues because it affects every aspect of the soul. And so talk a little bit about just in your, in your writings, and in your work, the cultural affect of sex outside the creatied design.
Terrell Clemmons 12:23
Wow, that's a big opening. And the first thing that comes to my mind, probably, and there's a lot of directions to go in answer that question, you guys have covered or at least I've listened to your podcast, I have not listened to all the episodes yet, but I plan to, but you've covered pornography and, and addiction. And most of the ones I've heard you have covered them from the perspective of men who are getting sucked into sexual addictions or sexual compulsive behaviors, in order to meet needs that are not basically sexual needs, but they're more emotional, relational needs. And as I'm a mom, I have three daughters, and they're all in their 20s and their 30s now. But as I raised my daughters, and, and then got connected with a lot of their friends and watched the culture they grew up in, what I have seen more of is from the female perspective, which I also resonate with, where, where young women just so much want to be loved. And the culture, it's just, it's just almost like it's in the water that sex equals love. And, and young women who are also being raised by broken parents, often in broken homes, often without their father present, or their father emotionally present. And they're just dying for love. And so what they start doing is giving themselves away sexually, and we have a culture that that encourages that. And then what as you mentioned, the article about contraception, that was one thing that I that I have learned in the last 10 years or so writing for Salvo, and researching is what the contraceptive culture has done. It has separated sex, sexual intercourse, from baby making, to just be real blunt about it. And then the culture comes along and says sex is the way to have love. Sex is the way to get your emotional needs met. And I see young women probably maybe young men too, trying to get their emotional needs met by just acting out sexually. And it's in the they don't even have the context to connect the dots to their feelings of loneliness, sadness, they thought this thing was going to give them what they wanted and then it's not. And then when the addiction cycle kicks in, they keep doing the same thing. And it's not satisfying the needs. It's only Increasing the needs. And it's it is heartbreaking to see it. And so that's one perspective that I see young women. And then and then we also have a culture that that abortion is the way to remove the consequences that naturally happen when you do the activity that creates babies. And they're told at the outset, they find themselves in these crisis, they're not thinking clearly. And they're told, Well, this is just a really quick solution to the problem. And it doesn't solve the problem, and it creates even more problems. It's, it's heart rending, it's heartbreaking. And I mean, it's why I'm grateful for what you guys are doing. Because if, if we could say --I'm like, what I do at Salvo is writing on these issues. I'm up at the top of the cliff saying, Please don't jump. Don't do this. Here's what you can expect. You're down there at the bottom trying to help clean up the mess or do emergency salvation or medical care on the brokenness that happens when people jump off the cliff. Because they don't see what's down there.
Roane Hunter 16:20
Oh, gosh, yep. Well said, you know, part of our story, and we talked about it in our book, Eva, my wife and I, we had an abortion going into our freshman year in college. And of course, you know, we were, I mean, I grew up, even though I grew up in the Bible Belt, I always tell people, I grew up in the Easter Christian denomination, we went to church at Easter, maybe. And even that was the, that was weird, in a way, right? Because, as you said, everybody goes to church. But we did it. And so, you know, and Eva grows up in, she grew up in, you know, they went to a Baptist church, and it was all about rules and very little relationship, and not really living your faith out. But going to church. And so, you know, abortion was the easy answer. And part of that, you know, from her, her parents perspective, her mother in particular was, like, you know, we nobody can know about this. And so the after effects of that, and so many people don't realize it, so many women that go that have an abortion, suffer from PTSD, and, you know, that played out in our lives. And then so, you know, the the quick fix the easy answer, it's, there's long term consequences to that. And one of the things that you said, this idea of, you know, sex equals love, boy, that, that, that just permeates the thinking. And then the idea of collecting the dots, we always say, you know, so much of what we do in our work, is we're going to go collect the dots, and then we're going to help you connect the dots. And then we're going to be working to correct the dots. And that's really the process that we take couples through, individuals through, especially when it comes to this area of sexuality. You know, I believe you've written about this, but so many people don't know, kind of the, the history of the sexual revolution that really started with Alfred Kinsey in the Kinsey report, the sexual male, and the faulty research that was part of that. And then that became the standard for sex education. And, and, and again, it's like that all of that has played into this tsunami, the reaping the whirlwind, that we are seeing now. And you know, so just talk a little bit about the the revolution that occurred, and really started with the with the pill.
Terrell Clemmons 19:17
Well, yeah, that's another big one. And actually, before Kinsey, and I wrote an article about this, it goes because back a couple of years now, so I'm gonna rattle these things off of memory, I may not get exactly right. But before Kinsey in Berlin, in oh my goodness, pre World War One Berlin, Berlin, or maybe in between the two World Wars, there was a movement in Germany and there was a sexologist, scientist that wanted to study science sexually, but it was completely separate from the biblical perspective of sexuality. And it was within the Darwinian mindset, and Darwin, Marx and Freud, who, you know, are all Eurpoean thinkers of the 1800s or excuse me, yeah 1800s -- 19th century European thinkers began from this worldview that we're really just you know, we're just matter and molecules in motion. And that is the scientific view on the world. That's the more advanced. And then so this I don't remember his name, but he was a sexologist, and he, I believe he was a psychiatrist or a medical doctor, and he wanted to study sexuality. And so that took place in Germany, and then it eventually as you know, some of them thought and some of these people were Jewish, and they came to the Atlantic to America because they had to get away from --before World War II, and they brought it with them. And America was kind of ripe to take that and run with it. And yeah, like you say, Kinsey, I live in Indiana now, so I like Indiana, but yeah, Kinsey is from Indiana University. And, as best I can tell, still kind of respected down there. And but yeah, Kinsey-- what, 1960s ish, 50s and 60s. He started with the sex and the male or something like that. And it was Judith Reisman, who eventually started looking into his research and digging it out and showing how
Roane Hunter 21:15
One of my heroes.
Terrell Clemmons 21:18
Yeah, no, I think she she died maybe just in the last couple of years. But she is a hero. Because there's a there's a saying and I think it's been attributed to Mark Twain that a lie can get halfway around the world before the truth can get its boots on. And that is true. And lies just are like fire that take off in a culture. And Kinsey-- I mean Judith Reisman looked at how-- he was abusive of children he was trying to -- you know, he wanted to make the point, apparently, that children are sexual from birth. And but the man was a mess. You know, now that, yeah, he's deceased too, believe.
Roane Hunter 21:56
He is.
Terrell Clemmons 21:56
And it's come to light that he had really just all kind of messed up sexual behaviors himself. But he also used or prisoners supplied a lot of his data that he did research on about their sexuality. And so the sex, sex and the Sex and the Male came out, it might even have been late 40s or early 50s. You may know more about that than me. And then he followed that with Sex and the American Female. And, and then, so in this 1940s 50s 60s era, then you get women like Betty Friedan, who I believe founded ms magazine, or something like that. And, and she talked about being an at home mom, but wanting to get out into the world and work like a man. And then the founders of Cosmopolitan magazine, Cosmopolitan magazine, before it became the sex thing that it is now was like a ladies magazine with home and fashion and things like that. And I believe Helen Gurley Brown was one of them. One of the authors who took Cosmopolitan magazine, and turned it sexual, to say that women could be set free by going out and having lots of sex with lots of different people just like, just like men were known to do. And so then you bring in contraceptives, which were introduced in the early 1960s, the pill. The pill was approved for FDA approval in the 19-- it was 1960. And so it was you know, it was put forth as like this magic bullet that would set women free so that they could experiment sexually, and they could have all this sex, which, you know, they might think was going to be -- give them love. But it didn't. And yeah, I actually had an article a couple of issues back on the approval process for the pill. And it was actually known at the time that the pill had serious health consequences for women. And that was not -- that was not taken into account, even through the FDA approval cycle and hearings were even held where more information came out. And it turned out that those who supported the FDA approval of the pill and widespread use of it were thinking about population --overpopulation politics. And so women's health was not taken into account. But here we are 50 some years later, and teenagers are given the pill. I mean, even adolescents are given the pill. And it's just not -- it's not in their best interest anymore than than all the sex that they're encouraged to have is in their best interest. I may have just rambled there. I don't know if I addressed your question or not .
Roane Hunter 25:10
Absolutely. No doubt. And again, all of this has played out in where we are today. And then the advent of, you know, high speed internet porn, and you know what we know today of how that affects the brain. And what it does, you know, we call high speed internet porn, we call it crack cocaine. Yeah.
Terrell Clemmons 25:36
Yeah. I mean, it affects the brain just like crack cocaine does. I've heard you talk about that. But there are, I mean, there's, there's data to support that and, and that, that men Well, I guess it's sometimes for women, but it tends to be more of a male thing. When when they get addicted to porn, it affects their brain, and they just keep doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again.
Roane Hunter 25:59
Oh, yeah. I mean, I've sat with guys who, you know, parents did a pretty good job of trying to protect them from you know, porn growing up, and then they go off to college and get a laptop and, and they are going to discover porn. And it is so addictive because of what's happening with the brain. And it has to do with the Coolidge Effect, which is kind of associated with the nucleus accumbens, the pleasure center of the brain. And it's, it's the unlimite and endless novelty and variety. And, and it's just, I mean, today, it really is, it's unlimited because of high speed internet porn. And that makes it so addictive in nature. And some of that's just evolutionary biology, in the sense that, you know, looking for the perfect mate, and you can just click, click, click your way into infinity, because you can find the perfect sex partner, or at least keep searching for it, that produces the right amount of dopamine.
Terrell Clemmons 27:12
And the brain actually reconfigures itself to keep wanting to do that. And to have that be the go to response when there's emotional distress.
Roane Hunter 27:21
Yes.
Terrell Clemmons 27:22
And then another thing that I have seen, again, I come at this probably more from the perspective of a mom raising daughters. But but as porn has gotten, obviously, more and more available, it's, it's hard to avoid it almost. And more, it gets more and more violent, more and more people watch it, and then it, it warps the growing male, to the extent that it's, it's a male thing, sense of sexuality and what women are expected to provide them. And, and so when women go, they want their love, they go give themselves, but sometimes the male is really violent. And the women doesn't. The woman giving herself or the the young, teenage adolescent, giving herself sexually hoping to get love is instead just getting used and getting hurt, and getting more and more broken as well. And also, sometimes, you know, the girl might, well, wait a minute, I'm not ready for this ,stop, and the guy can't stop. And then it becomes a kind of sexual assault, or it does become a sexual assault. She didn't really want it, she still but she did put herself in that position. So I'm not really blaming any victim. I'm just kind of explaining the dynamic that happens on a grand scale--
Roane Hunter 28:44
Oh, yeah.
Terrell Clemmons 28:44
--that serves nobody's interests.
Roane Hunter 28:46
Yeah, it's just destructive. And, you know, one of the things that we're seeing, you know, just the statistics show us that, you know, more and more women, young girls are, you know, getting hooked on pornography. And so much of that is driven by, you know, these these young teenage boys that are, you know, I mean, the average age of exposure today to hardcore pornography is somewhere around nine years old, and that's been steadily dropping, but that's because the advent of, you know, technology, smartphones, and, and so these young guys are showing, you know, these girls, well, this is what, you know, real women do, and, you know, it's it's, it's hardcore pornography. And as you said, you know, girls want to, they, they they want to be loved. And so they will go along in order to get that, right?
Terrell Clemmons 29:39
Right.
Roane Hunter 29:40
And we see that play out in marriages. And but but one thing that the way that it typically plays out is that at some point, the wife kind of wakes up and says, This just doesn't feel right. And they're the ones that will throw the flag, and then that's when things start kind of unraveling, because he's compulsively using pornography. And he thinks that that is what you know, sex is supposed to be like. But some, somewhere in the created design of Eve, in the woman, is this part of her that, like, knows innately that this is just not right. Always say that, you know, men are mostly we're just we're fancy dirt, right? And woman is the first fully human being because she's born out of flesh. And she's certainly created for relationship and connection. That's why she showed up. And so I think that that women have more of an innate intuitive part around this than men do. And so that usually plays out when that stuff is going on in the marriage. And then, of course, you know, and it's been, I think it was Judith Reisman that talked about, you know, Hugh Hefner, he took Kinsey's research and basically said that he was going to be the megaphone for Kinsey. And he comes up with Playboy Magazine. And, and so often when we talk about pornography today, people think, well, you know, it's like Playboy and we always go, this is not this is not your grandfather's porn. Used to -- used to we'd say, your father's porn, but now we're in second generation of the-- of the worst social experiment in history of just the unleashing of this on a on a total-- on a culture. And we're seeing it play out. And, and so talk about if, like, I know that you in your readership, you guys have a lot of pastors and church leaders and ministry types. But just as far as the church and sex, and what you have seen and written about along those lines.
Terrell Clemmons 32:20
Wow, that's a good question. And the only way I know how to answer that, at least offhand, is the church is - and I don't want to be critical of the church.
Roane Hunter 32:32
It's okay.
Terrell Clemmons 32:32
But because I, you know, I'm part of a church. And I think we all are called to be part of a church. But maybe this is another aspect of how lies get halfway around the world before the truth gets its boots on. But by and large, pastors are not really trained to be an in tune to the sexual brokenness, you see that I'm sure. And not only that, but pastors are also inundated with the challenges that the new atheists brought 20 years ago, and because young people or really not just young people, but anybody can get access to any information on the internet, they can Google a question and get any number of answer. And, you know, for the by and large, I think pastors are doing the best that they can. And many of them have their own brokenness, or were raised in broken families. So they're still trying to do some catch up and do some, some healing or figuring things out for themselves. And churches are not the best places to be going for -- by and large, and I'm generalizing, obviously-- to be going for sexual help, for help when a couple or or a single who's been misused, or misguided for help, and that's why I'm glad that you guys are there. We try to at least give people intellectual help and intellectual but, but help in terms of the ideas that guide our thinking, and if they will guide our behavior, life works out a whole lot better. And the thing that we have in our, the thing we have going for us is truth really does withstand scrutiny. And if we will just -- I won't say we will just -- but but sometimes it's just helpful to say you know, sex works best in marriage, that that that does resonate, and I think it resonates with people because it just is true. I'm not really trying to give a moral prescription although there are there is a moral code that that coincides with but but sex works best for for a young woman and a young man when they have made a commitment to one another to stay together. And and if there are -- if they've thought about what they're doing ahead of time, then it might result in in a pregnancy and then a pregnancy is kind of a big deal. It's not just something you can erase without consequences. And again, I think maybe I've gone off and rambled. I don't know how to answer the question about what the church can do, except that people who are people who kind of get the get this and are both working on, on recovering ourselves-- we're all in recovery, aren't we?
Roane Hunter 35:27
Aren't we?
Terrell Clemmons 35:27
I mean, we're all in recovery one, one sense or another. And sanctification is, is a biblical idea. But but it does involve recovery, we're all broken, we're all a work in progress. Those of us who are recovering, to, to be alert and be available and do what we can to serve. To serve. I mean, loving, loving our neighbor requires being alert to what their needs are, and there's some needs out there.
Roane Hunter 35:59
Oh, tremendous. And like I said, it's not getting any better. It's just, it's just amazing. And really, it's just a culture in denial, you know, all the research around your marriage. I mean, everything indicates that, you know, you know, even you know, obviously, from a family system, you know, it, like a husband and a wife is is always the, that's always going to be the best, right? And over the long term, you know, sex inside of that, again, research bears all of this out. But yet, we just live in a culture of denial. And it's like, you know, our sexual rights, somehow trumps everything else.
Terrell Clemmons 36:57
Well, and the lies are very loud, the lies are really loud. And that's always been the case and the lies, it's easy to come up with a lie, all you got to do is just open your mouth and say what you want to say, you know, that have that started in the garden. You know, lies are easy. Truth requires -- I mean, for us to know truth, truth is knowable. But for us to know, it does require for us to think, and sometimes thinking takes time.
Roane Hunter 37:26
Yeah, and I think so often, especially around this, we have to go and find the truth. And certainly today, there's there's a lot of just a I mean, there's good stuff out there around what is healthy sexuality. I often tell people, when it comes to, you know, seeking help around sex, in a marriage, or individually, you need to really be sure who you're going to go get help from. We did an episode on helper trauma, that that's what we call it. Because, you know, maybe you go to your pastor, and then oftentimes, you know, they're the first line of defense when all hell breaks loose in some way. And, you know, the couple goes to the pastor, but I also know that, you know, the amount of training that they get in seminaries around sex and sexuality is, is a zero, they don't get any training around it. And then they get, they get less around, you know, marriage and family counseling. And so they can -- I always say, it's good to go to your pastor for support and prayer and all of those good things, but hopefully, he's wise enough to know that that's probably not his area of expertise. And then he will have resources, where he can refer, you know, a couple or an individual to somebody that can actually be helpful and not harmful when it comes to this.
Terrell Clemmons 39:11
Yeah, it's such a sensitive, it is just like, maybe the most sensitive issue that humans engage in. It's deeply personal. And, and when you're wounded sexually, I mean, that's really deep, and it hurts to go to that painful place.
Roane Hunter 39:29
Well, you know, it's just that it's the most sacred part of who we are, as a man and a woman. You know, Paul writes about it in you know, I Corinthians 6 where he talks about this, and, you know, sometimes it gets preached as like, if you're a sexual sinner, you're the worst of the worst. But that's not what Paul is saying. He's just saying that the consequences of this particular area of life are much deeper and much greater because it is the most sacred part of who we are. It's like God, our Creator, put within each of us, male and female, his most creative aspect of who he, is the ability to create life. And that's why it's so sacred --
Terrell Clemmons 40:11
Right. That idea of It's powerful. It's so powerful. I mean, what could be more powerful than making a human being a human life made in the image of God? Participating in that act is just like the most powerful force on the whole planet.
Roane Hunter 40:28
Absolutely. And, and so if we have this power of life, but it also holds the most power for destruction, it's kind of both ends of that continuum. So in in just kind of talking about the bigger picture, and looking at just pornography, I know, you've written about that, and the affects of it, and how that plays out. What would you say, just, you know, for our listeners, what would be something that you would offer? As far as, like, if this stuff is playing out in your life, in some way, shape, or form? Even for pastors? Well, how would you direct them to actually change this? Do it different? Get help? What would you offer around that?
Terrell Clemmons 41:29
Wow, that's big, too. But what comes to my mind is you've talked about sexual as, as within the addiction metaphor. And I believe that that is that is true. And that is a good way to look at it. If someone's -- if someone's sex life is out of control, meaning they are, they're doing things sexually, that they kind of know is not right. And there's kind of-- there's shame around it, and you don't want to let it come out, first thing I would say is you need to, you need to go before God with that. I mean, God is our first refuge, right? And we can take everything to God, God's God already knows it. For one thing, it's not like, we're going to going to surprise him. That, and then counseling, good counseling, maybe maybe, I don't know if you have on your website resource lists, but I bet that you do your book looks fascinating, I would love to get your book actually, and read it. So I think I'm gonna put that on my list of things to do. I was not aware of it until, until I became aware of you guys and your podcast. You know, I have this I, thankfully, not because I was virtuous or anything growing up. But because of the culture in which I grew up, I did not get sucked into a whole lot of sexual acting out. It was just not what people did when I was growing up where I was growing up. But I did get stuck, let myself get sucked into some compulsive behaviors around food. I think that's more common with women, women and food. And I had to learn to manage my own emotions, or deal with my own emotions and the stress of life without just going to food as my go-to thing. And that was a process. And it was it was not easy. But it was part of growing up. It was part of the sanctification process, it was part of the emotional maturing process. And so all of us, well, I don't mean to be blunt, or trivial, but we need to grow up. And God is the first parent and God is a good parent. So whenever anyone realizes, you know, I'm in a place that's just not healthy. I mean, the first thing to do is go to God and ask God for direction, and then look for people. And I do believe if we ask God for help, and then we start looking around for where that help might be coming from God is going to put that help in our path and guide us and that's what the Good Shepherd does. Right?
Roane Hunter 44:09
Absolutely. You said it earlier, this idea that, you know, we're all in recovery, right? We often remind people that the first time Jesus spoke in public, he talked about recover. You know, He came to bring recovery of sight to the blind. And it is the sanctification process. And I believe what we're all recovering is the life that God intended us to live before. Before life starts happening, you know, he had a plan and a purpose. But, you know, our work is beginning to get on that path of recovering and taking back these aspects of life that have caused us a lot of pain and destruction along the way. And so it is recovery, and we're all in it. And, you know, I've got two grown sons, and now two grandchildren, a grandson and a granddaughter. And obviously, this stuff for me is I mean, it's been personal. And certainly it continues to be. Because I look at, you know, those two little grandbabies and knowing that this stuff is not getting any better, and trying to do everything that we can to change the culture as best we can, or certainly, you know, our own little kingdoms, our realm of influence that we all have. And that's one reason I so appreciate Salvo and the work that you guys are doing. And it is, I believe, the best Christian worldview biblical worldview magazine out there today. I recommend it to certainly everyone that I come across, like, man, you need to you need to get plugged into this, because it will help you think deeper, and ultimately think better.
Terrell Clemmons 46:09
Yeah, because how we think is how we're going to behave. As a man thinketh in himself, so is he. Or something like that.
Roane Hunter 46:16
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And, you know, our feelings emanate from our thoughts. And so, yeah, and if, if, if we're, if our thinking is distorted, then yeah, the feelings are gonna follow. You know, one of the things you talked about just the kind of the violence, and, boy, that's such a part of the mainstream pornography. I did a, I have a PowerPoint that I did that shows the rise of broadband internet, high speed internet, and you know, that hit around 2000. And then, when you look at smartphones they came on the scene around 2010. And when you just, when you look at the graphs, it's it's this, you know, pretty steep incline. And then I took the calls to the National Sexual Assault Hotline, and you see it -- if you overlay all these graphs, it follows the same curve. And then the next one, I had sexual assaults in the military. And then the next one was sexual assaults on college campuses. It, of course, you know, researchers will tell you, you know, causation doesn't necessarily mean -- correlation doesn't mean causation. But when you look at this and where we are today, it's like, No, all of that is connected to the to the rise -- it's just, it's, we live in a pornified culture. And it in certainly you with daughters, and I mean, they're grown, my sons are grown. My oldest son, he's one of our therapists, he works with us. He and I do a lot of work together with men and fathers and sons. And yeah, we've got 20 therapists that work under us, and in most all of our therapists, or, you know, CSAT therapists, which is certified sex addiction therapist, and, and so we're kind of the, I don't know, regional hub, I guess, go to referrals for this area. I mean, we work with everything. But certainly, this just affects so many people, and certainly so many marriages.
Terrell Clemmons 48:50
Yeah, and there's no way to get away from the sexualization of pretty much everything.
Roane Hunter 48:56
Yep, it's just there. So just as we as we wrap up, just tell readers or listeners how to get in touch, or how to find Salvo and the easiest way to do that and get plugged in to a great resource.
Terrell Clemmons 49:16
Yeah, sure. Thank you. Yeah, we're online. It's salvomag.com. salvomag.com. It's a print quarterly. And it's a I mean, it's why I think it's a good resource too, so I'm glad to hear what you had to say about it. It's a little edgy. We -- Salvo does not assume that the reader is a Christian. Salvo tries to make the case that the biblical worldview makes the most sense out of reality. So it is we have been told, you know, some people feel comfortable sharing Salvo articles, even with people who might be resistant to the faith, and we try to -- we try to turn down the emotional dial we don't really try to make people upset or angry. We try to just give them you know, facts, and sometimes history and go back and trace the history of certain ideas and how they have played out. Like, for example, the sexual revolution, which goes back, you know, a couple of centuries now, and or Darwin and Darwinian evolution, which assumes that we're just animals. And we try to trace the history of ideas and help people think clearly about them. We also have an online blog that's not in print magazine, it's online only. And people can get that also on our magazine, sign up to get it sent to them. We roughly like three blog posts a week or something like that, no ads, there aren't ads on the website or the blog. So I mean, just, it's just good content that we try to put out there. And, you know, I if somebody emails editor@salvomag.com, it comes to me, so if people have, you know, comments, or feedback or questions or anything they can they can find us on the website, and they can email me there.
Roane Hunter 51:01
Awesome. Yeah, tremendous resource. I would recommend it to everybody that I come across, I think, certainly would be required reading. So man, Terrell, thank you so much for being on the podcast. And I'm, I have a suspicion that we'll be inviting you to come back. Because I could we could go for I mean, we could do a whole week long series around this because I think it's important. This is the kind of the foundational thinking that is is is you know-- my teaching mentor Dr. Dallas Willard, you know, he always talked about we're, you know, he was spiritual formation guru. But he talked about our spirits are being formed for good or for evil from the day we're born until the day we die. And regardless of whether we know Jesus or not, our spirits are going to be formed. And they've been formed by the crazy chaos of the culture. And in in your, your work, Salvo Magazine is is one way of correcting that and changing it and forming it in the right direction. So again, thank you so much. Glad you took the time to be with us. And I look forward to having you on again. And we will. Thank you.
Terrell Clemmons 52:31
Well, thank you. That would be great. I would be delighted to do that.
Ben Derrick 52:37
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