In this episode, Roane and Ben explore the role of women in relationships, rooted in ancient Hebrew language. The discuss the concept of the woman as a "relational warrior." The conversation begins with a discussion of the Hebrew word "Ezer," which means "warrior" and is rarely used in the Old Testament, primarily attributed to God. This leads to the idea that Eve may also embody this concept. The central theme emerges: Eve, as the "relational warrior," is designed to protect and nurture relationships. This episode delves into how she confronts threats to the relationship, emphasizing her role in maintaining the connection. Listeners are encouraged to rethink traditional gender roles and consider the value of the "relational warrior" concept in modern times.
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Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God and Chaos podcast, conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Ron Hunter. Let's jump right in. All right,
I know what we're going to call this episode.
Roane Hunter 0:29
All right, I'm anxious. What is it?
Ben Derrick 0:31
Roane explains women.
Roane Hunter 0:35
It's going to be a very short episode. We can knock this out in about 10 seconds.
Ben Derrick 0:40
just a shrug of the shoulders doesn't even show up on microphone.
Roane Hunter 0:44
That's all I got.
Ben Derrick 0:45
Thank God, this is not information that originated with you. Right?
Roane Hunter 0:49
So no, we're we're passing on information. Yeah, that that's what we're doing. I always say, you know, I only work with men in my counseling office. And certainly all the coaching weekends. And just Yeah, I work with men that do get to see behind the curtain because even I work with couples. In the end, I do see some couples, individually, but I say two things. You know, I don't really want to be in a room with an emotionally needy woman. That's not a good idea. Not a good thing for you. Yeah. And second of all, what would I know about a woman I've got one I've been married to for 40 years. And I, have over 40, I have not figured her out yet. So that would just be a really kind of pointless endeavor.
Ben Derrick 1:47
We don't have enough time to listen to your meanderings. We need some real information, right? This is a little bit off topic, but we're in the intro. So we can do that. You mentioned something I've been walking through this with my 16 year old my 13 year old and challenging them to start to live with a code that if you don't write your own code, as an individual, someone else will write it for you. And you just kind of exposed some of your code right there. Like I just do not sit in rooms with needy women, that is not a good idea, no matter how much my heart would compel me to want to get in there and help that situation. That's probably not a good idea. I love that about you.
Roane Hunter 2:23
Yeah, yeah, I, you know, and again, just, you know, doing, obviously, working with couples, I always say I do get to see behind the curtain. And I do, you know, kind of understand a little bit, at least more than I used to, as far as, you know, kind of how women are wired. And, you know, the way they relate, it's very different than the way that men relate. You know, one of the things is always interesting to me, it's like a guy as he's been found out, or he's admitted, his pornography, brokenness, addiction, sexual addiction, whatever it is, and then, okay, now he's working his program doing the deal. And he's getting sober. And the expectation that wives have, that somehow he is going to relate to her now perfectly.
Ben Derrick 3:18
or even better.
Roane Hunter 3:21
Because like, those two things are not the same. All of this is, you know, it's basically emotional dysregulation and distress reduction behavior. And so the very thing that I was using, in order to regulate my emotions, has now been taken away from me. And so in, then, you know, I'm spinning, she's spinning. And so you get two highly dysregulated, emotionally dysregulated people. And then a man doesn't know how to do it to begin with. And it takes years to learn, you know, the skill set of like, emotional dysregulation, emotional connection, you've got attachment-disturbance in play, but it's just this expectation that now he's going to be a relational savant.
Ben Derrick 4:15
That is an, that is an amazing expression right there. So what we're seeing over these past two episodes, and we do need to dip back and just kind of catch people up, but we are saying at its very base level, that men and women experience the world differently, based in their gender based in their design from the beginning, they will see the same situation, the same relationship from different points of view that's always going to be there.
Roane Hunter 4:44
It's just a fact. I mean, it's like a It's a cat and a dog. I mean, we're really two different species with some similarities, but I mean, even now, you know, in brain research, you know, they're discovering the, like, fundamental differences between men's brains and women's brains in in man brain, well, if a man has one, and I mean, I remember, you know, reading about, you know, the woman's hippocampus which is in the limbic part of the brain. And that's where memory and emotion are stored. Well, in a woman's brain, the hippocampus is, on average, about twice as large as that in a man's brain. So you just think about that, her brain, she's got twice the capacity for memory and emotion. That's why she can remember what you were doing what you said, the argument you had, how you said it, what you were wearing, where you were, and how she felt and 10 years ago. And you know, we, as men, we can hardly remember what we did yesterday. And so, I mean, it's like, I think I threw the book across the room, literally, because I'm like, Oh, crap, she's right.
Ben Derrick 6:04
Oh yeah, that's right. I had a guy say yesterday, I don't even remember where my keys are. Much less what happened yesterday, right?
Roane Hunter 6:11
Yes. And we are, as in our last episode, interestingly enough, though, remember, remembering what I always say our greatest strength is always our greatest weakness. So if we are the remembering one, we're also the forgetting one.
Ben Derrick 6:25
It makes a lot of sense, though, that that it, we shouldn't let that frustrate us. Because if we're saying that by design, and that's God's doing, and God has designed the capacity to be double, well, that actually makes sense to me. Because the things that I work harder for mean more to me, if I'm doing them just because I have the ability or they're easy, they don't even really register their wrote. But if I've got to work on something, then it's going to go deeper, I am going to remember it and connect emotions to it. So that limited capacity, I would propose God was doing that very intentionally. Everything else in my life that I work for that heavy emotions are connected with those things stick. If it were too easy, then I wouldn't appreciate it as much.
Roane Hunter 7:16
Oh, yeah, we wouldn't, we would not value it if it was just, you know, kind of this natural ability, but it's not for men is something we do need to work at it. And interestingly, you know, we see that in our you know, dating early stages of dating. Man, us men work at it. Right? We are in hot pursuit.
Ben Derrick 7:39
What is it? Trying to get laid? Is that? Pretty much? Yeah,
Roane Hunter 7:44
Pretty much. Yeah,we think that we're in love, but it's mostly just raging hormones. But you when you look at a guy, you know, dating, newly dating, oh, my goodness, you know, he's sending flowers and cards. Well no, men don't do that. But, he's making an effort. Right? He's being intentional in this in this area of pursuit. And then once he shoots, it, kills it. Guts it and mounts on the wall. That that does that a good analogy? I'm just I mean, I understand what you're saying we are in Mississippi, right? But it's like you know, you hunt the deer, you shoot the deer, all that good stuff. And then once we get the wife, it's like, yeah, I'm done. And then complacency sets in, and then marriages start going to crap. And, you know, we start looking for other things to pursue to give us that feeling of somehow being alive or, you know, we get we get all that confused. Like, you know, in love. Holy cow. what a what a sickening term.
Ben Derrick 8:57
It's the thrill of the chase.
Roane Hunter 8:58
yeah. And we just start chasing the scream.
Ben Derrick 9:00
I see a lot of women, a lot of wives that are really saying, I just want to be pursued, I want to be chased again, I want to be chosen, all those desires of the heart, I want those things to be in place. And, you know, often men are just numb to the fact that they aren't remembering, right? And they're not taking action because they're angry or confused, or both at the same time. So it takes a while, you know, go back and listen to this first episode on the genders if you're confused by the dialogue, but basically what we're saying right now is that a man, by definition, the word Zakar that is a Hebrew word that has banked within it dual meaning at least, that the man is the remembering one, the one that remembers his relationship with God, and then takes action out of that relationship. And by doing that, taking that action, blesses, adds life to, the people in circumstances around him. That's a it's a lofty goal.
Roane Hunter 10:02
Yeah. But you know, those are the things that give us purpose and meaning and fulfillment. And we see it all the time, you know, you can't take it with you. And nobody's gonna put it on their tombstone. You know, I wish I'd have spent more time at the office. I mean, we intuitively know these things.But we're so inundated incultuated into this mindset that, well, that's how this is supposed to work. And then we neglect the very thing that intuitively because of the god stamp on our soul, we know that like, Man, those those connections, those deep relationships, all of those things, that's what really gives us life. The trinkets and the stuff last are very fleeting.
Ben Derrick 10:50
Yeah, since I first heard that word Zakar at my first deer camp in 2017, I can say now, from my own story, the largest regret preventative, is remembering. Yeah, I had those completely reversed. When I sat down in that camping chair hiding under my beanie, you know, smoking a pipe hoping I wouldn't be noticed. But when I started to hear that lesson of Zakar, something just rung true about that. And now that I've been working it out for a number of years, it is such a powerful word. I put it in the ranks with words like Grace, understanding Zakar, it's right up there, because it leads to so much good and so much corrective behavior in my own life. And the times where I'm slipping, which is word we use a lot in this community, the times where I'm slipping, it's because I'm not remembering. And I have to work very hard to remember, as we've already said, yeah, it takes a lot of thinking my wife will walk past me sometimes. And she's like, What are you writing? Why don't you just always writing I'm like, I'm not gonna remember this. If I don't write this down! Yeah, I've got to go back and review it. So
Roane Hunter 12:00
well, to illustrate that, you know, one of the things that our men's coaching weekends, you know, we talked about Zakar and we talked about that through the weekend. And we're encouraging guys to find something to represent the weekend, a memorial, if you will, seems to be a biblical precedent. And, and then at the end of the weekend, guys come up, and they present their pine cone or their, their rusty can, but it's amazing. Actually, guys actually do still have imagination, when they're 40 years old. Like, you know, maybe when they were six, or seven and playing war with a piece of bread shaped into a gun, I mean we can actually recapture that. It's so guys will come up and talk about their Zakar and what it means. And then we have them just place it on the deck, and everybody puts their Zakars down, and then we take a picture and then we it's time to go home. And we leave inevitably. I'm gathering up the Zakars. The the remembrances that they have forgotten.
Yeah, that is amazing. Oh, yeah, we, if we're the remembering one we're the forgetting one. It's so true. I'm reminded of that every weekend, we spend a lot of time talking about this. But yet, today, our
Ben Derrick 13:34
Makes sense. I had to ritualize mine, and we won't stay here long. But for me, there's always a fire when men are gathering these, these events. And I take some of the ashes and put them in a mason jar and label it. I had to make it ritual and habitual so that I didn't do that very thing. Be like, Man, what a great idea. Not really, I just did it so I don't forget, you know, and I don't have to think about it every time we get together.
Roane Hunter 14:02
That's just yeah, that's smart. You're smarter than you look.
Ben Derrick 14:06
That's That's exactly right. I'm so glad this isn't televised, right. So we we're shifting gears this episode, and we're going to pay attention to the other half the other part, whatever language you would want to use on that we've discussed Zakar. Now we get over to the descriptive words of the woman. Man, I'm especially excited about this because of how corrective this teaching is, and you and Eva both actually over time have done a really great job with this. I'm sad. She's not here with us, but you'll have to do all right. So let's go through the descriptive word for women and just man. It opens up a new world, doesn't it?
Roane Hunter 14:44
Oh, wow. It really did. I mean, when I, kind've, came across his teaching, by the way, I didn't hear this in church. Seems like most of the really good stuff. I've kind of dug out on my own. Now not sure what that's about, but you haven't
Ben Derrick 15:01
heard this because in churches, women can teach children but they're not allowed to teach adults.
Roane Hunter 15:06
Do not there. Yeah, yeah. They can teach.
Ben Derrick 15:09
Teach us in the most impressionable phase of our life. Yes. But once we're adults. Yeah, you need to get over in the children's wing. Right?
Roane Hunter 15:19
Yeah. Go back home and do your housework. Good grief. Lord help us. Yep. But I mean, truly, it was a book written by a guy named Skip Moen. It's called guardian angel. And Skip is a Hebrew scholar. Sometimes, he comes from a Christian worldview, sometimes when you read his daily readings, and even his books, it's Skip, are you advocating a return to Torah? I don't, he's not. But he's just really digs into the Hebrew language. And which I just, it's so much richer and deeper than the English language. And so much of it, you know, got lost in translation from the Hebrew to the Greek to the English. And sometimes I'll read a verse And when you say the original text and the meaning it's like, holy cow, it's not even close. I mean, anyway. But but in guardian angel, this word really unpacks this idea of he goes into the Zakar, but it's more focused on on the Ezer Kanegdo, in that's the Hebrew word, the descriptive word for woman in Genesis two paths.
Ben Derrick 16:39
Before we go on, I do need you to spell this because we're going to save our listeners hours of Google searching.
Roane Hunter 16:45
Yeah, yeah, this is yeah, I'll just pronounced it in southern Hebrew. Yeah. But it's Ezer E-Z-E-R and it's Kanegdo. K-A-N-E-G-D-O. Ezer Kanegdo. And, boy, this was I mean, I wouldn't say there are many books that were like, life changing. Maybe it wasn't life changing. But man, it was, it was a huge paradigm changer. And to how I really viewed my wife. And I mean, this has probably been, I mean, not that long ago, maybe 15 years ago, I don't know. Which at 62, 15 years ago seems like yesterday. See, those years keep getting shorter, and shorter.
Ben Derrick 17:35
Literally a third of my life Roane.
Roane Hunter 17:38
Like, gosh, but it really was a shift. Because the the Hebrew word Ezer, it means warrior. And it's, I may butcher this. I'm sure the all the theologians and biblical scholars will email us and correct me. But, but it's a very low number, that that word is actually used in the Old Testament. And it is, it is typically attributed to God Himself. It's like the Lord is a warrior. The Lord is his name. Well, that is Ezer. And so it's, it's really basically attributed to God and Eve. There may be something there, right? That's awesome. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I mean, we obviously we would think, you know, the man is the warrior. And certainly we are, but when it comes to the idea of relationship, that's where everything changes, because she is the relational warrior. I mean, that's what she was created for his relationship. Evidently, as we said, in the other episode, Adam was fine being alone, naming the animals tending the garden. And then God comes along and says, Adam, it's not good for you to be alone. And he creates relationship and connection. And so with a warrior with the warrior mentality, and so even in that, it's like this idea that I mean, anything that is a threat to the relationship. She is built and designed and created to come up against it, right. And I always say she, she can be your greatest ally or your worst damn enemy. If we're out there doing things that threaten relationship. Well, she is that's what she's there for. Anything that's a threat, whether that's you know, dear season starts in November, and I go to the woods and I don't come back until, you know, end of January, every weekend hunting and you know, she probably is going to come up against that. The way guys frame that is Man She just always trying to tell me what to do and control me. She won't let me go huntin Well, no. Stupid. She is actually doing what she was created to do. Because you being gone all the time from her and the kids is a threat to the relational world.
Ben Derrick 20:19
Gah lee, I just want to have to interrupt you, when I sit, sit with you and say, uh, gah lee, that's like, when when the Mississippi comes out, there it is, man, you're striking a nerve love it. But to be able to say, you know, your wife, you say that she's trying to control you. But the larger truth is, she doesn't trust your capacity to engage with this thing that could be dangerous and actually do it well. That's the real message.
Roane Hunter 20:44
100%. And typically, one of the things that she's saying is, you know, we, we've got to go to church, you've missed church, you know, 10 weeks in a row, and we got to go to church. But what she's doing is what she was created to do. She was created to help us remember, the Helper, the helpmeet. What you're really lame terms. Because what is she helping? Well, she's helping point us back to God relationship with him. And that's why she'll nag you about going to church. And so but what she's doing is what she was created to do. She's pointing her man, back to God to remember primarily that relationship. And then her and then out. It just ripples out from there.
Ben Derrick 21:37
Yeah, that first part of that the editor part of it to be connected to God? Isn't that everything? Not to go into chase this for heaven? Isn't that everything that our culture has been feebly attempting to try to empower women with? And in the wrong way? Yes. You are a warrior. And you can be seen apart from man. Well, a large part of that activates in relationship with men. This is totally
Roane Hunter 22:06
is that beautiful. Yeah. I mean, we're not what mean, we're created for one another. And just that idea of when, you know, two becoming one, and I believe this is the oneness, because when she's operating in her strength, which is the Ezer Kanegdo, Kanegdo is, That's kind of the connecting one. Obviously. She's really the relational strength. She's the spiritual guide. Oh, gosh, Hang on. I didn't say leader. I just said guide.
Ben Derrick 22:44
Well, they didn't hear this. I edited it out. But I just fell out of my chair. Yeah, to get back in it.
Roane Hunter 22:49
What did you just say? Oh, my goodness. But but she really is. Because she's more intuitive. Emotionally. Obviously, she has more relational stick-to-itiveness. And she is she is that part of God in flesh. And so she's all of those things. And she is all about connection. She's about relationship. Because that works. That's what she was created for. To be and to do. And it's what she does. And it's it's just it's so interesting. I've seen it in my whole life. When I as the Zakar, when I am remembering God, and initiating acting on that initiating with her with Eva relationally and emotionally, well, Eve Eva, is created and designed. She's She will respond. That's the creative design in mistranslation, but that idea of like, husband's love, which is, by the way, is a very action oriented word. Not all the craziness that we have attributed to it. But it's like husbands love wives respond. We it must have been a man maybe that made it Wives submit but man that submit thing. I don't I don't know where that came from.
Ben Derrick 24:19
I've seen you get visibly angry about that.
Roane Hunter 24:21
Yeah, because it's, it's I mean, I had all these things, you know, when I experienced the reality of reality of it in my own life, and then I get to sit with it and watch it unfold as a couple begins to actually operate this way. I know that submit is a total off Mistranslation, because she's designed to respond in again, the husband as the head. It's like where it's the head of a river. It's not I'm the head of this household. But it I'm the head of the river of the river intimacy and everything. flows from the head. And I set the tone. And if I'm doing my part as a man, which, personally I don't like, God put it all on us, that kind of sucks. But somehow he did. And that's the way it is. And so I have to do the deal. Man, it really actually works, because she will respond when I initiate relationally. And emotionally. I've seen it, experienced it, and I continue to watch it unfold in the lives of many others.
Ben Derrick 25:34
So God believes in us, He knows our capacity more than we do our own. I'll admit to you Yes, it is. It is frustrating. But when I start to live that way, man, I see this happen in my own life, my own marriage, that my wife does begin to respond in a way that matches like, Oh, something about this feels right, you know, in the same way that something about that submit feels wrong. And, we argue with a lot of people, okay.
Roane Hunter 26:02
It's kind of a sport. Actually.
Ben Derrick 26:04
Yeah, we argue most with the biblical scholar, who would accuse us we hear you're rewriting the Bible, I'm like, actually, no, you have just doubled down in believing in an already rewritten version of the Bible, and if you really want to go toe to toe with me, which I'm pretty confident you don't. But if you want to go toe to toe to me, then we'll start talking about how Jesus roamed the earth, correcting in appropriate and incorrect interpretations of the things that he said, Yeah, and that his father said, you know, and that's what we're doing here. And I think there's going to be a lot of freedom here for women who have been bound who have been restricted, their warrior part of themselves has been taken away by the church. It's disturbing and troubling. Because what we're saying is, in order for you to be a good woman, you have to actually separate yourself from your designed identity. And what we're saying today is, don't you ever Yeah, absolutely. Don't you ever stop fighting for what you know, is right and defending against things that could be threats to relationships, because if that stops happening, then we know and I'm just continually baffled why more people aren't cluing in to, especially people inside of the church, to people like you and people like Eva, who are approaching their work from a biblical worldview, and are sitting with the actual effects of their professed theology in pulpits. This is where this takes people, it feels like to me if you're, and especially if you're a pastor leading a congregation, you should, first of all, you should be in your own therapy. Second of all, you should pay for an additional hour where someone could say, alright, what are the effects of the way that we're teaching these things? And this is one of those things, I think it's why it makes you angry, and me angry as well about proxy, when we see women who have been, in effect have been neutered, to say, well, I can't, I can't be who I'm designed to be, I just have to submit to terrible sex to terrible leadership to terrible guidance on my finances. And I just got to keep this ring on and hope all this crap works out. There are so many women, and we know listening to this podcast that are trapped in that exact space. So the next question is, if I'm a warrior, and I'm connected, but I don't have that as part of my reality, it's not surrounding me. How do I go about creating that in my most important relationships? How am I seen and heard, what do I do?
Roane Hunter 28:38
Well, I think, you know, so much of just the working with women, oftentimes, it is the idea of like her really beginning to find her voice. And if if, you know, if, if the husband is out there, you know, just doing whatever. You know, it's interesting, you know, you know, wives will stick around women, actually, they're the relational strength. They're the relational glue. And when a guy goes off to rehab, be it drugs, alcohol, sex, rock and roll. She will stick and she will stay and then when he goes off again, for the second time, she will stay and you'll see this man, he may go 3,4,5, But boys, she hangs around. Now the the clinicians in those treatment places in the crazy counseling world. They're they're saying, Oh, she's just codependent. No, now, certainly she she needs to begin to work with boundaries. But she's actually operating out of what what she's she was created and designed to do. She's the glue. She's the she's the relational strength. And it's interesting and I've seen this when the roles are reversed, and the woman goes into rehab, I mean the the man, he'll stick around. Maybe that one time, but she goes back, boom, he's cutting bait, man. He's, he's peace out. And again, that's just basic design, because we're mostly fancy dirt. She is created for a relationship for connection, all of those things, and us men we're not. And so we see that I just have seen that over and over again.
Ben Derrick 30:39
isn't it? It's maddening. You sit with a man who has crossed flesh lines and is and has had an affair if not multiple. And you're sitting in a couple session, man, all hell has broken loose. And then you hear this comes out of man's mouth. Well i saw her, you know, like, you guys, girls post on social blog. What's that about? Oh, my gosh, man. I mean, she saw she had a heart on a picture. Yeah. And you're equating that with you meeting... Yeah, that like that's equal with you meeting a woman at a hotel and having sex this weekend. Like, yeah, but it the intensity feels the same. So I've started talking to men by saying, Look, man, the more that you do this, you're abusing your wife? Totally. No, no, no, you get I'm like, no, no, no, you're abusing your wifes strength, you're taking advantage of the fact that she's going to stick in this with you and let you just pretend to be a man. Yeah, until hopefully, you'll wake up. And so we start to have a mindset shift of, we're thankful for the warrior part of our wives, but we're not going to take advantage of that warrior part of our wives now, obviously, grace and mercy and restoration, all that stuff is the goal of the work that we do. But we want to use it at an appropriate level. Right?
Roane Hunter 31:59
Absolutely. You know, one of the things I see is like, Guys, where it's, and, you know, listeners can't see this, but always do air quotes, where it's just porn. Because, um, I don't want to minimize that. The, you know, the wives that kind of, like, somehow accept that, or they kind of had the mindset that, you know, well it's just something men do, you know, typically that wife has, she's never had a voice and you start kind of digging up underneath that. There's a reason why, but if she actually she starts meeting with my wife, it's pretty soon going to be Houston, we have a problem, because she's gonna begin to realize that man, you know, boundaries are being crossed. It really is, it is abusive for a husband, to keep going back to porn, and not stop and not even check up and work on, you know, his purity, getting sober. And then all this the bigger part of emotional and relational sobriety. But if they're working with my wife, they're gonna figure out that this is not good. This is not right. And man, it's like when that clicks and the light bulb comes on. Boy, they get it. And then they're looking at hubs and going, if you don't get some help for this, I'm done. And she should be, because it's just it is straight up abuse. And the guys where the wife is not kind of that strong about it. I just see them continue to struggle and struggle and slip and slip and not ever really get better. But boy, when that when that Ezer Kanegdo shows up, holy cow, they'll get their butts in gear at that point.
Ben Derrick 33:57
Yeah, because we are designed as Zakar, to respond to that. Yes. And I stole this from you guys. Thank goodness I don't have to pay you royalties for the things that I say that I learned at my own therapy.
Roane Hunter 34:09
If any counselor ever had an original thought we'd all. We go into a coma or something.
Ben Derrick 34:14
But it is interesting to respond to show men, to say to men, you stole your wife's voice. And, there's almost nothing more detrimental than to steal a warrior's voice. In that room, in that hotel, in that closet at work, or wherever it happened. Your wife wasn't there, and she didn't have a voice. And for the next couple of sessions and months, she's going to get that voice back. And if you're not up for that, dude, if you're if you're so weak, you can't handle that, I guess we'll just keep meeting and you can just slink off and do that stuff you were doing before. I mean, you have to meet a man with that kind of language. Because It's that serious. You have to give your wife her voice back. Now I know there's some pushback to that, well, she always had a voice and you understand what I'm saying, Oh, totally, he went in, and he stole her ability to have a voice in that situation to not be able to protect against that relational thread. And now the wife needs to be able to take significant amount of time to make commentary. And basically, what I see happening in my practice is the wife is saying, See, see, this is why this was a problem. This is why I knew it early on, this is why we were having those arguments. There's just a roll out of explanation of: I saw this coming. And I tried to warn you.
Roane Hunter 35:35
Yeah. And she did. She has. And, you know, you know, all of our men listeners are gonna, they're gonna tune out. I mean, in no way are we saying that, like, somehow, you know, wives, women don't have their own stuff that they need to engage, right? 100%, but when you when you've got this type of thing going on, I mean, she can't engage it, because she's just spinning. She's got anxiety, and she's hyper vigilant, and she's worried about, you know, where you are and what you're doing. And so nobody's gonna get better. I mean, even for the brain to heal, where there's all this intensity and chaos, the brain is just gonna stay in a hyper vigilant state, in order to heal, there has to be calm, and there has to be peaceful. Otherwise the brain's just fired up and nothing's gonna happen. So it's all important. And yes, well, I mean, we all as human beings, I mean, we're last time I checked, we're all broken. Yes. It's just weird. Except one. He was not. Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Jesus. But, but we've got to begin to comfort the hurt that we've caused. And because we've, this sexual brokenness thing, we've done a tremendous amount of damage. And, you know, in the betrayal, trauma and what she's experiencing, it is real. And man, we've, we've got to do our work in order to help her heal, and that, it takes time and it takes time, tears, and talking.
Ben Derrick 37:22
Yeah, I love when a man sits in my office and says, Man, my wife is just trying to control me. So, and thankfully, I have this planned out now just waiting for that opportunity. And then I say, Well, okay, well, are you controlling you? And then they, Why did you ask that question? Like, Well, somebody's got to be controlling you. Yeah. So it's not you, then it's probably going to be her. So if you want her to be less, and I'll do the air quote, controlling Yes, then maybe you should step up. Let's start doing the things like remembering and acting, right. And we see this all the time, don't we? That the spouse will then go off shift, will step down out of that hypervigilance and will be able to engage relationally in a way where they are not, as you say spinning. Right. So it gets both parties. Exactly. Not just what they want. But what they need. Oh, yeah, in order to be together in a couple ship. There's something we haven't talked about. And I'd like to take some time to do it now. Nobody teaches us how to do this.
Roane Hunter 38:28
Wait, I thought you went to seminary and you learned it there!
Ben Derrick 38:32
I also got married, i also have a father, right?
Roane Hunter 38:36
Did i say cemetary?
Ben Derrick 38:33
Yeah, you did. I got married. I have a father. I have Christian friends I have God knows how many pastors, No one sat me down and said, Hey, man, I had one guy in my life. And thank God, he was honest about a few things. And man did I need those few things in the first five years of my marriage, but I do not recall someone sitting me down and saying, Look, this is going to be really important. You're not just going to intuitively understand how to be married to a woman, one woman, the wife of your youth for over 20 years. You're going to need to stay in steady school about this. But here's the Crash Course. Here's the boot camp. We have women in the same position. It's like, well, what what I do well, the whole focus of of all this coupleship is that first point of contact, basically as husband and wife and it's a fantasy. It's a party where people are going into debt. They're getting drunk. The pastor is like a pastor for hire out of the Yellow Pages. Do you know how many weddings I did? In my time as a pastor? Where did I didn't even know the people? Yeah, hey, yeah, right. We went there Easter one time, and we got your number from a buddy of ours, I'm like...
Roane Hunter 39:04
Well, the best is funerals. Right? When you don't know the guy.
Ben Derrick 39:46
man, what am I supposed to say about this guy?
Roane Hunter 39:49
Well, in Mississippi, everybody's a saint when they die. It's easy.
Ben Derrick 39:53
We're just trying to infect the fantasy with the truth. Right? And that's the difference. So as we're doing Talking about the woman as a warrior, we're talking about her being primarily focused on that connection, we see this inside of women and their relationships, although often we should probably invite Eva in to do an episode on this, how difficult it is for women to stay in relationship with one another long term, but they are in the beginning stages way more intuitive about it. But having this Zakar and Ezer Kanegdo actually be in relationship with one another long term, there's intricacy to this. It's not as easy as people make it seem.
Roane Hunter 40:35
And you know, it's just interesting. I mean, Jesus, when He said, Go and make disciples. He talked about going and building more churches and making sure that everybody has more Bible knowledge, right? I mean, Jesus did not do that. What Jesus talked about was the heart. Jesus talked about awareness, Jesus talked about relationships. And somewhere along the way, we just decided that the way that you grow a Christian is formation by information. And it's like, Man, that, well, that's, that's Yeah, you did it. For way too many years. Yeah, but I mean, that's kind of where we are in western church, evangelical church. And Jesus is like, he's teaching us how to live life. Not just get more Bible knowledge, you know, life is lived in relationship, in just this. All of the, you know, emotions, relationship, all the stuff that takes us all out. I think Jesus had a lot to say about that. And I mean, I just always think of the verse because we think of women as you know, they're kind of these dainty little creatures. And they're kind of like a little exquisite teacup. And they'll break really easy. Like, dude, I have sat and watched women deal with some really hard stuff. And women are, when it comes to relationship, they have a strength there that men don't have. That's why they're kind of the relational guide, right?
Ben Derrick 42:22
A true story here. One day, my mom was at Wendy's with my older brother. The lady inside disrespected my brother was some sort of comment that she made. My brother's a teenager, like He probably egged it on. My mom gets out of the car. And this was when the person backed up, you know, the door would shut automatically. Do you remember those? Yeah, the person backed up because my mom was being so aggressive. The door shuts, my mom ripped the door off the hinges, ripped it off the hinges and there was a, There was a police officer behind her. Yeah, she looked around and saw him he gave her the thumbs up. That is a warrior woman.
Roane Hunter 43:04
That's the way it works.
Ben Derrick 43:04
ripping a door off a fast food restaurant.
Roane Hunter 43:08
Oh, yeah. You know, it's like when Peter writes, you know, live with her live with the woman as a weaker vessel. Well, maybe we need to rethink that. Because somewhere, you know, Paul wrote, In my weakness, God shows up, but he is strong. So maybe Peter is affirming the relational strength of woman, the Ezer Kanegdo, that that in her weakness, she is strong, because she is more attuned to God and his relationship with us.
Ben Derrick 43:46
The idea of dependence on God is not lost on as many women as it is on men. And again, I wish that were not true. But I wish I could say something different, but it is fact. Yeah. And we spend most of our days interacting with men in relational difficulty. That's what were we thinking? So let's wrap the episode up this way because and I love the fact that we're really willing to rib on men because well, god knows we deserve it.
Roane Hunter 43:49
Dude It'd be kind of stupid for us to talk about women. I'm not that dumb. You might be, but I'm not doing that.
Ben Derrick 44:15
Yeah i am, I am. But only after we turn the recording off. So I'd like to end the episode this way. We were talking about the togetherness, the cooperation, the two calling out to strengthen one another that the two becoming one is the biblical language that she used very often. When a man says that he usually means sex and we need to have more of it because it's biblical
Roane Hunter 44:43
No , you mean when the pastor says that, because that's what he says. He's the man, in the pull pit.
Ben Derrick 44:50
I sat in those services, yes.
Roane Hunter 44:52
you didn't preach that ever did you?
Ben Derrick 44:54
No, but I got dangerously close.
Roane Hunter 44:57
Yeah, you skirted the line.
Ben Derrick 44:58
I did. I did. And I hope that recording has now vanished. In the pages of history. But I can admit my mistakes. I'm growing that way. Right. But part of the magic here is we've talked about the Zakar and the Ezer Kanegdo is that they're, they're designed to how would you describe it fit work together? Like,
Roane Hunter 45:16
yes, spokes in a wheel. I mean, it is it's like. And i, Again, I have seen it in my own life when I moved out of my passivity. And I began to initiate relationally and emotionally, and even, you know, maybe, instead of stepping over the pile of dirty clothes, maybe I'll just look at it and go, Well, I could go put those in the washing machine, and then put them in the dryer, and then maybe I could fold them. Instead of waiting, you know, for my wife to ask me to help. Move. What if I actually initiated around the house? Because I mean, I was I was always willing to help. But yeah, like a little, you know, 12 year old 13-12 year old 13. You go rebellious? Yeah, but like, okay, you know, I'll yeah, and I was willing, but I did not, I mean, I'm a grown man, we are equal. Even the picture of marriage from Genesis, the, the Hebrew word picture, there is like a man and a woman standing on level ground. And there's like an arch and arc over the top of them, indicating that, that were mutual or equal, when one's not above the other, we complement the strengths of each other. And when that all comes together, that's kind of how it was meant to be. And man I even I both say, I wouldn't trade all the hell that we've been through and walk through, to get to where we are. And I'm not not that we've arrived. It's a marriage cat and a dog living together. Yeah, however, we do have the tools and the resources for that not to spin out of control, like it used to, you know, we get sideways, it might last 10 minutes at the most. And man we can, we can do what we need to do. And but it's, it is good. But that's because we have done a lot of work. Getting there.
Ben Derrick 47:24
That's beautifully spoken. And what we do say often is when you get there, when it starts working, you'll know it, I won't have to convince you to want more. You will actually just want more and even our bodies tell that story. Oh, totally don't they? Yeah, I cannot be passive and placid. And this actually work, you know, I have to have to take initiation here. And I have to have some confidence to be able to do that. And both of these bodies have to be able to work together. I mean, everything that God designs, he's sending a message. And when we want one without the other, we bastardize the whole thing and it's going to end up in chaos.
Roane Hunter 47:24
Sex, God, and Chaos.
Ben Derrick 48:05
there it is. it is we should do
Roane Hunter 48:08
good name for a podcast.
Ben Derrick 48:09
it is we should do that.
What you're saying, though, and I think what I hear you saying is, you have less and less chaos inside of your marriage.
Roane Hunter 48:17
Oh, man. You know, we always say that the the movement in this work is from false intimacy, to true intimacy. It's like from chaos to order. And, you know, I mean, our relationship. I mean, it's just, there's it's calmness. It's peaceful. It's, I mean, we, yeah, there's, like, again, you know, we're gonna have just, the wires get crossed. Yeah. But I mean, day in and day out. Wow. I mean, it's, I think it's what we're all longing for. But we have no idea how to get there. Because, as you said earlier, man, who's teaching this who's showing us this? Our moms and dad didn't know it. I mean, even if they stayed together, because most most moms and dads the you know, the, the divorce rate in Christian world is just as high as it is and out there in secular world. And so where would we get, gain this? You know, doesn't get preached in church other than, you know, read your Bible, memorize some precepts and some principles. But man, you've got to get down into the bone and marrow of your life, and just the generational dysfunction that has been passed on. It's, it's overwhelming, and certainly, you're not going to be able to do it on your own.
Ben Derrick 49:47
Yeah, no doubt about it. So our encouragement would be if this episode or these two episodes in particular surrounding descriptions of gender and how they work together have been helpful for you please hit that little box with the arrow, share it with someone else. Definitely give some feedback to us. We would love to hear from our listener base. Where do you feel like this has been true in your life? What are the things that are still confusing because we could do more of this right? But one of the best ways to spread health is to spread these conversations that are that are helpful for you and also, to be able to visit websites like lifeworks.ms to jump on there and say there are people here that know this way that know how to show the way. Hop on that website, find a clinician there, make a phone call. It's an incredibly nerve wracking step to take, but there's so much freedom and healing after that.
Roane Hunter 50:39
We always say that we've got we've got more resources right here, than you've got problems. there's help available.
Ben Derrick 50:49
To learn more about what you've heard today, and to engage with the Sex, God, and Chaos team, visit sex god chaos.com