In this episode, we delve into the complexities of resentment and bitterness within intimate relationships. Drawing from personal experience and expertise in navigating sexual brokenness, Roane sheds light on the intricate web of emotions that often remain unspoken but deeply felt. From harboring resentment towards a partner, rooted in misconceptions and personal insecurities, to grappling with bitterness stemming from childhood traumas, each story unveils layers of unresolved emotions. Join us as we explore the ripple effects of past experiences on present-day dynamics, the subconscious projections that color our perceptions, and the profound impact of betrayal trauma on individuals' emotional landscapes. Through honest dialogue and introspection, discover the nuanced journey towards healing and reconciliation in the face of complex relational challenges. Tune in as we navigate the intricacies of resentment and bitterness, offering insights and perspectives that ilight the path towards understanding, empathy, and ultimately, forgiveness.
Ben Derrick 0:05
Welcome to the Sex, God, and Chaos podcast. The conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in. Roane, That last one was a tough one.
Roane Hunter 0:29
Hits close to home. Yeah. Real close to home for both of us. Yeah, thats right.
Ben Derrick 0:34
We're probably the top two men in America to handle that topic.
Roane Hunter 0:38
Oh, yeah. No doubt. Gosh,
Ben Derrick 0:40
Hey, speaking of America, we have people listening that don't live in America.
Roane Hunter 0:44
It's incredible. It really is. And our audience just continues to grow. And I don't know. It's kind of cool.
Ben Derrick 0:51
It just proves how universal these ideas are.
Roane Hunter 0:53
Yeah, sometimes I wonder if it's just the title, "Sex, God, and Chaos." Maybe guys are Googling sex, and our podcast comes up.
Ben Derrick 1:00
I don't know. I prefer to think it's our uniquely southern accent.
Roane Hunter 1:04
I think that's what it is.
Ben Derrick 1:05
They're worth listening to.
Roane Hunter 1:06
Right! You said I have a southern accent. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 1:09
Here's the word for me where it shows gone. Instead of going.
Roane Hunter 1:13
Oh, yeah.
Ben Derrick 1:13
I'm gone do this.
Roane Hunter 1:15
Yeah, yeah, gone. I'm fixing to...
Ben Derrick 1:17
Fixing, yeah
Roane Hunter 1:18
I'm fixing to
Ben Derrick 1:19
Man I'm so good at.. And I find when I'm with my family, it just comes out.
Roane Hunter 1:23
Oh, yeah. yeah. Well, truly, you know, we lived in Atlanta for many years. And I've had people tell me, you know, when they met me and knew me in Atlanta, I didn't really have the strong accent. Oh, yeah. But when we moved back, it's back. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. Southern gentleman.
Ben Derrick 1:45
There we go. Well, we're here to address another difficult topic. That's probably what we should have called this podcast. Another difficult topic.
Roane Hunter 1:53
It's always a pleasant topic. Yeah, yeah.
Ben Derrick 1:58
We decided against that. It's outside of our church for that.
Roane Hunter 2:01
You can get that there. Yeah. Listen to a children's sermon.
Ben Derrick 2:07
pleasant Baptist Church, there probably is one of those. I'm sure if you put mount in front of it.
Roane Hunter 2:12
So we got to stop. Lost all of our Baptist listeners.
Ben Derrick 2:20
They'll be back
Roane Hunter 2:21
They come back seeing if we're going to change...
Ben Derrick 2:23
they do. And we don't.
Roane Hunter 2:24
we never do.
Ben Derrick 2:25
So this actually is a great lead in for our topic today. One that is so divisive inside of relationships. And that is resentment and bitterness. Once that moves in and sets up shop, it takes up all the square footage in that relationship normally, very difficult to break very difficult to understand how it moved in. And we get into a lot of conversations about who was right who was wrong. What was just that was unjust, you hurt me, I hurt you. You always hurt this person. I mean, wow, those are those sessions are usually just electric.
Roane Hunter 3:02
They're fun. They're entertaining. Make popcorn in the microwave. You know, and the great thing is I get paid at the end. To watch watch two people fight on my couch.
Ben Derrick 3:15
You usually don't have much time to say anything.
Roane Hunter 3:17
No, it's so true.
Ben Derrick 3:19
Well, I think we made some progress today.
Roane Hunter 3:21
Yeah, this was really good for me. Because I got paid. But man, it is so true. You know, I always say it's like two kids in a sandbox. And everybody's kind of playing nice together. And then somebody throw sand in the other's eye, and then all of a sudden, they're hitting each other head with a hit over the head with Tonka Trucks. But man, that's a lot of marriages. And it's I don't think that's what God had had in mind. Now, it is fascinating, because you sit there and you look at two people at some point, that really, you know, they evidently must have loved each other, as twisted as their view of love was, but it was there. And it's all hunky dory. And now we're sitting on the couch, and we just can't stand the sight of the other. How does that happen?
Ben Derrick 4:13
It still breaks my heart to see couples sitting on a couch as far away. I mean, they are hugging the rails on either end of that couch. Like, Hey, can I get you a chair we can move even further away.
Roane Hunter 4:27
It's painful.
Ben Derrick 4:28
Exactly. And when you see it on display, you're like, these people are actually very successful, intelligent people. But what I'm seeing show up in this room right now is the opposite of all of that. But it feels so right for them, you know, and they're they're just really justified in the whole thing. And look, let's let me say I've been there. You've been there.
Roane Hunter 4:48
Well thats what is was getting ready... Yeah. Like, lest you think that we're just observing this. No, we've been a real part of it, and lived it out. And man, it sucks.
Ben Derrick 5:00
Yeah, we were talking Off mic a little bit about these words, they they seem interchangeable. But there's a little bit of difference between bitterness and resentment, I would love to kind of start there. Because when we're using these emotion words, and we've said, for a long time now most people are very unaware of their emotional base. So when we sling these words out, I think we have to give some time to define them or walk around with them just a bit. So let's pick one and go.
Roane Hunter 5:27
You know, just when, to me. And again, I haven't even Googled it, but resentment seems to be more prevalent. I mean, it's on both sides of the fence. But in kind of working in this arena of sexual brokenness, you know, what I see, and what I was, was resentful towards my wife. And that resentment would be because of the story in my head, the belief, the false belief that somehow she wasn't for me, she was out to get me she was controlling. She's always trying to tell me what to do you know, all those things that are just kind of a natural part of a relationship that normally or healthily, you would try to work out and talk about. But but in my perception, and my broken filter, with my own baggage, it was criticism, and that criticism for me, it read resentment, and I was resentful, because in my head, I'm trying to do everything I can, in my codependency, listen to the last episode. I'm trying to do everything I can to please and appease her. And when she didn't act, right. Oh, now I'm resentful, because my best efforts have been to no avail. So I was resentful. And, on the other side of the fence, and again, I'm just, in my own experience. Yeah. Eva was very bitter, and rightfully so when everything came out. But that bitterness was there before. She knew anything about my acting out behavior, and the bitterness in her story. And she talks about this was rooted in growing up with an alcoholic father in that home. And, and there was there was bitterness, even towards a man, namely her father, that growing up, she would have never even been aware of that, right. But the bitterness, it was there. And then that would get projected onto me when she would envision me, because I'm a man, obviously. And so she would, she would take that out on me. And again, a lot of times, that's, that's subconscious. This was all pre-recovery. And I mean, you know, I was probably bitter in some ways, too. But for me, Mom was more resentment. And I think she would say that bitterness was was more her reality. And then certainly after discovery, she was very bitter and very angry. And that was not just because of the betrayal, trauma that go went back into her own childhood, of what she grew up in. And she brought that baggage with her, and you know, that's the longer term work of recovery is beginning to get into those relational dynamics, and the intimacy disorder. But it was all there before discovery.
Ben Derrick 8:38
Yeah, the bitterness, resentment combo for me the way it's worked out in my life, or how I've observed it again, this isn't clinical information. We're not reading from some research paper, just life, you know, which, by the way, I think is the best way to approach counseling, therapy, mental health. Let's be grounded in life here and not some ivory tower of a research project, some label, oh my goodness, because whenever one label stops being profitable, we just create more so we can charge for
Roane Hunter 9:10
New Medication.
Ben Derrick 9:11
New medication, right. But in my own life experience I have seen across my family of origin within my marriage, that resentment tends to be more a masculine thing, because resentment has with it the connotation of I will act out against because I resent you and now I have someone I can hate even momentarily. It's more outward. Yeah, I mean, the definitions if you look, if you look up the definitions, they overlap almost entirely. But for me, in my family and my key relationships, bitterness usually has been a more feminine response to the same situations and leads to isolation or going to within you know, I don't I don't see in my family, a lot of bitterness leading to acting out against another It is a pulling away from and isolating out of bitterness. And the damage actually falling, I have a great deal of compassion on this because the damage actually falls on the female in the relationship and a lot of my client base. So we have actually a double whammy here, we've got a woman who is bittered. And again, that's just my experience, a woman who's bitter, who is hurt, and is isolated in a relationship with a man who is resentful and is hurting externally. So the woman in the relationship is taking, taking a lot of painful experiences on and unfortunately, the man acting out of resentment is just on this pleasure circus that he feels like is going to solve everything. And the longer this goes, the more damage that it does. And I understand that there - every relationship has a different temperature and a different way that things go. The big point we're trying to make today is that resentment slash bitterness is very, very dangerous for relationships.
Roane Hunter 10:30
Well, and you know, maybe the biblical picture, the thing that comes to mind is the story of Ruth and her mother in law, Naomi, when when Naomi, you know, everybody dies lose everything. You know, I think it says that she actually changed her name to bitter, I think it's Raka, something like that. But, but it's like, okay, maybe maybe there's a biblical precedent for this idea of is more on the feminine side, the bitterness. And I will often say that I think sometimes bitterness and resentment got married. And what they produced was a baby named contempt.
Ben Derrick 11:47
Oh, man.
Roane Hunter 11:50
yeah. And then that, you know, that leads us into, you know, John, doctors, John, and Julie Gottman the Gottman's, and you know, we pay attention to them because of the research that they've done around marriage. And, you know, they came up with the four horsemen of the apocalypse of marriage. And, you know, when these four things are present, the marriage is probably not gonna, well, just not gonna make it. And you know, those four things, the first one is defensiveness. And then the next one is criticism. And then stonewalling, and then ultimately contempt and, you know, their research or, you know, observing, you know, 1000s of marriages over the years, bears this out. And so that's why we pay attention to them, and the missing ingredient, that they say those four things are present in every relationship, the missing ingredient of the marriages that are going to make it versus the ones that are not going to make it, the missing ingredient is the ability to do repair work when any of those things happen. And that's what we see so often with couples is, there's just a lot of water under the bridge. There's a swamp of resentment and bitterness, and ultimately, contempt. I can't even stand being in the same room with you. That's not good.
Ben Derrick 13:17
So the trick with resentment, I think, as we've discussed, just sharing life, as long as we have is that sometimes there's a legitimate circumstance or action that leads you to feel resentful. Yeah, like, I don't, I didn't like that. Yeah, I really resent that you did that to me. Other times, though, it's made up.
Roane Hunter 13:35
It's a story in my head. Like I said, you know, when Eva in our marriage, it was, you know, it was my own insecurities, and inability to, you know, get emotional needs met. And, you know, she would do things, and again, some of that's just in the course of marriage. And I would get resentful. But I wouldn't talk about it, I would just, you know, ruminate on it. Oh, of course. Oh, yeah. And, you know, part of our acting out behavior is I would, you know, I had to be a victim, and the victim has to have a villain. And so I would make her the villain. And in then, that would justify, you know, me acting out. Now, a lot of times, this isn't like a conscious thought, you know, I'm going to make her a villain so I can go act out great point, but it's become a pattern, but it has to do with the way that I'm thinking and I'm unaware of that filter. I'm unaware of that perception, that she's just has a complaint, but I'm perceiving it as a criticism, which is about who I am, rather than it's just a complaint. She didn't like this or I forgot to do that. And I would personalize that into you know, toxic shame.
Ben Derrick 14:56
Have you just explained how we get to these apocolyptic level arguments over who got the mail.
Roane Hunter 15:04
Isn't it. I mean, we talk about this often it's like, you know, somehow you forgot to roll the garbage can out to the street, you forgot again, you're the husband that's kind of falls under your, your chores, and you forgot, and then you get home the other day, and then she's like, You, you forgot to roll the garbage can out to the street. And, and then it's like, Well I didn't forget the other, you know, 732 times. But now somehow, you know, I'm a failure. Right? And so now it's tapping into my insecurities, my toxic shame messages. I'm not enough. I'm incompetent. And then on her side of the fence it's tapping into, or he's not really invested in the home or the family. He doesn't really care. He doesn't care about me. He doesn't care about the kids, because he doesn't care about the house. He forgot to take the garbage. Like, holy cow. Now I've constructed a whole movie around some stupid thing. That was just simply I forgot to do this, right? Holy cow.
Ben Derrick 16:11
I can't stop laughing. I have lived that day.
You had that argument. Me too.
Yeah, more than once. Right? And boy, that I just get big and angry over the whole thing. If I were to watch a film of that argument, literally 15 minutes later, I'm like, we were both children
Roane Hunter 16:15
We're idiots.
Ben Derrick 16:19
But it does, it feels like a complete attack. You know, the, if it's hysterical, its historical kind of thing. And, and especially if it gets very personal, and we should probably do an entire episode on how to accept criticism. It's necessary criticism is necessary.
Roane Hunter 16:47
Well, and I think a lot of times, you know, we have to discern, is it criticism? Or is it simply a complaint?
Ben Derrick 16:53
Or commentary?
Roane Hunter 16:54
Yeah, observation. Sure.
Ben Derrick 16:57
Yeah. However, all of that isn't lighting off. When we get into these dust ups. All we're thinking is, I'm about to be right about this, I've got to be right got to be right. And then when it doesn't, in my experience, when it doesn't resolve how I want it to parenthesis there, when it doesn't resolve that's where resentment starts to build. And I do appreciate the way that the sacred text of Christianity talks about this. It's that's the text I'm the most familiar with this may be in others as well. But it talks about bitterness, being a root, that there's a root of bitterness and other things grow as that route makes its way into your life. And that's a big part of of our health journeys that we've discussed, you know, through our friendship is that resentment or that bitterness it's it's dangerous because of what it leads to.
Roane Hunter 17:55
Boy, I you know, I tell guys all the time. You know, one of the things today that I guard against very aware of is resentment towards my wife because you know, 33 years of recovery when the pull is the strongest today is when I got some crazy thinking in my head, I'm getting resentful, making her the enemy. And boy that that pull to want to go act out, look at porn, masturbate, whatever, that's when it's the strongest. So maybe I need to look at if I know that resentment is one of the things that's going to lead me down that path. Well, maybe I could begin to really guard really fight against resentment. And you know, if if Eva was here, she would tell you that if we get sideways, which by the way, we still do, it's amazing. But man, if it doesn't last very long, we've got the tools. You know, we've done our work to get out of that real quick. But I make a beeline to her if if we've gotten sideways. And you know, she's gone back in the bathroom to get dressed or whatever, man, I'm making a beeline to her to say something like, Hey, I don't even know what that was really about. We'll figure that out. And we'll talk that through. But one thing I want you to know is I love you. I am with you. I'm not going anywhere. And I'm all in. And that gets me out of ruminating over somehow she's out to get me she's not for me. All of that enemy talk because if I move into enemy territory, Danger Danger.
Ben Derrick 19:44
The story we start to tell ourselves is pretty crazy.
Roane Hunter 19:48
Yeah. 'Cause pretty soon I'm going to be back into all the old trauma, the old messages, the toxic shame of you know, I'm on my own. She doesn't care about me. She's not for me. And I mean that that's old. And that was all there in the formation of my addiction. And so it's a pretty easy jump to understand why we would want to go act out when we get into this old negative false belief system.
Ben Derrick 20:18
The danger I think today is, and this has always been present, this isn't anything new inside of marriages or relationships. But the danger today is, once that resentment starts to build, then you can open up Fakebook, and you can find a lot of people in your history that you're not resentful towards anymore. Oh, yeah. Or never were. You don't even know these people the last time that you were with this person. They were 19 years old.
Yeah, Yeah, 14.
You were 14 years old. you know what? I don't really resent her. So let me shoot her a message. Yeah. And then before we know it we're in full blown affair, because we're running away from our resentment. And what we know because we sit with the whole arc of the entire narrative. You're gonna resent that woman too.
Roane Hunter 21:00
Oh, yeah. It's held down with you know, you can you can get divorced, kick this one to the curb, And I tell wives this too. But if you don't do your work, you're gonna be back in my office in about a year? Yes. Six months? Probably. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 21:15
I wondered what your timeline was gonna be 100% agree with that? Yeah. We're looking at probably about a year.
Roane Hunter 21:21
Yeah, max.
Ben Derrick 21:25
Maximum. So, you know, six months of fantasy, if this is all worth it for you, go right ahead. I'll see you in six months.
Roane Hunter 21:34
You're gonna be broke, you're gonna be driving your kids back and forth and dropping them off, and, yeah, it's like, maybe you could actually do your work each of you, and you could actually get this thing out of the ditch. And it might be the marriage that God intended. From the beginning, rather than the three ring circus that you were living in.
Ben Derrick 22:00
So what makes admitting I'm going to try to word this very intentionally. What makes admitting resentment, so frightening?
Roane Hunter 22:10
Well, I think it's vulnerable vulnerability, right? I don't want to even let you know that somehow, you've got some power over me. Because so much of you know, in marital dynamics, it's a power struggle. And that will go on until you figure that out. You know, we're trying to, we're trying to be in the one up position. And we will fight it out to try to maintain that or, or to obtain it. And so it, it's it, it's vulnerability, and I don't like vulnerability. And growing up like I did, it's like, Man, that is weakness.
Ben Derrick 22:53
Kryptonite.
Roane Hunter 22:54
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it really is a I mean, it's a just an aversion to weakness. And so being vulnerable is not, it certainly for me wasn't in my repertoire. And it was not something that was valued, or something that I knew even how to do or even to talk about.
Ben Derrick 23:18
I think a lot of the men that I sit with, or I know a lot of the men that I sit with, they hesitate to bring these things up, because they're worried that sex is going to be withheld.
Roane Hunter 23:28
Oh, yeah.
Ben Derrick 23:29
Inside the marriage, which isn't that just a sinister cycle to enter into? I don't want to admit that I'm resentful, because then you might withhold sex from me. Yeah. But I'm resentful towards you. So I'm going to go find something sexual outside of this relationship to kind of get back at you. Now, I can't admit that I did that. So I can't admit my resentment also can't admit my acting out behavior. And there's this huge elephant in the room in our marriage, and everything stops. And we end up at a therapist yelling at each other on the couch.
Roane Hunter 24:04
That's how it works. Circle of life.
Ben Derrick 24:06
this goes. So I think a lot of it is for listeners to say, of course, it's going to be frightening to enter into a conversation with your spouse, basically at the apex of vulnerability to say: you did something. And my response to that something was to build resentment. I don't even know if that was a healthy reaction to that but it's where I am. I don't know how tonight's gonna go or even the next three weeks because you probably have a lot of things to say about you know, me being resentful because I had to pull the can in from the street. That's not going to be fun conversation either. I just have to acknowledge and I think a powerful word for a lot of men listening would be admit, I just have to admit where I am.
Roane Hunter 24:56
That's it. This is where I am and you know, sometimes Maybe as men we have admitted or tried to. And then what we got was pushed back. Or maybe she doubled down. Oh, yeah. And so in our heads what we think is like, nope, not doing that. Don't do that, again, don't do that again. Yeah. And so we'll just go back into man mode because it's comfortable for us, just to kind of ruminate, shut it down, repress that, but it's gonna come out in our actions and behaviors in some way, shape, or form. So it always, I look at guys is sitting in a couple session. It's so much fun. And I look at guys, and I go, so like, dude, like your wife, when she's upset about something that you said? Or did? She just like mentions it one time? And then when you push back, she never talks about it again. Right? Isn't that how it works? No, no, no. Yeah. Because she is all about relationship. You know, that goes back to the created design of Eve. and so she wants the relationship to be right. And that's kind of the part of why she's here. She's the relational strength. And that's why she will continue to, like, keep pushing that until you have a conversation, and at least try to resolve it, or attempt to, because that's what she's supposed to do in the created design. And for us, man, like, you know, we're we're like Adam, I guess, you know, we were okay, naming some animals and tending the garden, until God comes along, says, Hey, Adam, you know, it's not good for you to be alone.
Ben Derrick 26:51
Are you sure?
Roane Hunter 26:52
I know. It's like, oh, man, I like alone, because that's peace. I can watch ESPN and drink a beard. Nobody talked to me. And I'm good. That's kind of in our DNA. But for her, it's not. And so in some ways, she is modeling healthy behavior. And we look at it as a threat. And so yes, she might push back. But there's nothing wrong with kind of leaning into that. Like, hey, when you said that, that was hurtful. I felt disrespected. Wow. Yeah, see where that goes?
Ben Derrick 27:29
Yeah, a lot of it comes down to I think, what is your relationship with the truth? Hmm, yeah, I see a lot of men in me personally, if I've become very resentful, because people and especially my wife, have gotten too close to the truth. You get too close to the truth. I'm going to start swinging, and then get really resentful when you won't just leave it alone. Just leave it alone.
Roane Hunter 27:29
Time stop.
Ben Derrick 27:43
Time to stop. And I think I don't want to speak for my wife, of there's one thing I've learned in 20 years of marriage, but I can make some commentary. I think on her side, the bitterness moves in when I won't engage with the truth. Oh, yeah, I start to deny the truth, or what's most dangerous in my marriage is when I start to reframe the truth with my version, she'll tell me, Look, I'm not your client. And I'm not impressed with all your words. You're just avoiding the truth. Which thank God, thank God for women in this world.
Roane Hunter 28:24
Strong women are a blessing.
Ben Derrick 28:24
Yeah, a huge blessing. But if you don't have a healthy relationship with the truth, I mean, all sorts of things in your life are going to go sideways. But I believe this is the primary gateway through which resentment finds a way into your life.
Roane Hunter 28:25
Oh, yeah, there's no doubt if I can sit with her, and I can somehow in my head believe that she actually has my best interest at heart. Now, the delivery of that might not always be good.
Ben Derrick 28:56
It lacks finesse or nuance.
Roane Hunter 28:59
Yeah, Eva, I call it with her. We talked about a hard start versus a soft start. Things go much better when she comes with a soft start.
Ben Derrick 29:09
Do you ever walk into your house at the end of the day, and just the hair on the back of your neck stands up?
Roane Hunter 29:15
Oh yeah, something's up. But I think it's it is certainly, you know, just this idea of being able to talk about this stuff. But it's frightening, especially when we have a history if there's infidelity, if there's betrayal, you know, the chaos, as we talk about, because somehow you know, she's going to spiral into that, or she's going to use that and weaponize my vulnerability and move into using that to win the argument. And boy, that's a dangerous thing when partners on either side of the fence weaponizing the other person's vulnerability is poison.
Ben Derrick 29:59
It's easy to do, though, it happens now that you've given me a little bit of information. Yeah, I'm gonna sharpen the edge on that and stab you in the heart with it.
Roane Hunter 30:08
Well,and it is, and you know, the hard thing for, and I'll just use wives, the hard thing for them to see is, you know, it's like this stuff that we're going to take to our graves. And certainly, it has harmed them, there's no doubt. But it is a vulnerable part of who we are the stuff that we were ashamed of, unless we were a psychopath. And now, we brought it out into the light vulnerably, sometimes we got found out and it was forced out. But like, in my case, I admitted to Eva, what was going on. And that was just God moved, for sure. But it came out. And it's very vulnerable. And oftentimes, in their hurt, and in their pain, the spouse will use that, because they're hurting, and they're in pain. And they want us to feel that same level of pain. And they didn't, they weren't in the fight for X number of years dealing with this. And now it's all new information for them. And they are in a lot of pain, and they're hurting. But, and the tendency is to use that in a shaming way, rather than to talk about their own pain in their own hurt. And it happens and it just it, it's not going to get you where you want to be. I mean, it's human. But but it's gonna just you're kicking the can down the road. Because when that's going on, you know, as the husband as the betrayer, you know, I don't want to go vulnerable ever again, because you're going to use it against me. Yeah,
Ben Derrick 31:53
it's hard. I've seen a few times this year, just to vision cast, for the people who are listening, this go actually go very well. And I think what leads to that is vulnerability that is supported by clarity. It isn't just random vulnerability, or I'm sure gonna let this out. And I don't know anything about what led to it, or that's why I believe it's so important for these things to be processed, whatever it is, you're going to be vulnerable in the beginning of your work, until you can do these things internally, because you've had the reps and you've learned as you mentioned the skills, but to be able to be vulnerable in a group of people that have done their work or with a clinician who has done their work, so that you can be vulnerable with clarity. Because if not, then it's going to feel very accusatory, and there's gonna be a really violent reaction to that. But when you provide clarity, I will tell you, I've seen both husbands and wives this year, receive that vulnerability with so much grace and charity, because there was an explanation very early on in the vulnerability. I was resentful over this. But that wasn't really about you. I acted out in this way. But it wasn't because I was choosing this better version than what you're offering. This is on me. This was up to me from the beginning. I didn't do it. There were lots of reasons for that. I want to talk more about that, that revelaing posture. A lot better than just, well, you know what, right? That usually doesn't end very well. But there is a way to do this. That actually not only kills resentment for the time being kills resentment, but it also increases the intimacy quotient in your relationship.
Roane Hunter 33:43
Mm hmm. You know, I just always think of, you know, Psalm 51, you know, David's confessional Psalm, the Psalm when you know, when Nathan confronts him, and then David admits right, and, you know, one of the things that he says is, you know, God it is against you, and you alone that I have sinned. And I think I think what wisdom is telling us in that is David is taking full ownership. He's not blaming anybody. He's not trying to project, he's not trying to, you know, run from it. I mean, he is just standing in ownership of what he did, and it's on him. And I think, Boy, that's a powerful statement. And a powerful model for all of us is like, even if my wife and I get in an, if Eva and I get in an argument, if I start calling her names, or I start cussing or something that's not on her, right. That's on me, in my own immaturity, and my emotional, stuntedness, because I can do that different as a Man, right? And I can't blame her because she said this, but so often on the couch, as you said earlier, you know, he did this. She said that and, man it's just case building, rather than ownership.
Ben Derrick 35:14
Well, we stumbled into it right there, haven't we the, the cure for resentment is actually ownership.
Roane Hunter 35:20
There it is.
Ben Derrick 35:21
I see a lot of people who say, men and women, you know what, I didn't have a choice here. And then I say back across that little coffee table of truth. Really? you really had no choice here? Like zero choices, you were out of choices, you know, you are standing in hot lava, you have no choice. That's just not true, man.
Roane Hunter 35:42
Not true.
Ben Derrick 35:43
You have to convince yourself of that in order to do some of the terrible, painful damaging things that we do you have to convince yourself, there was no other way. That's usually not the case. Ninety-nine point whatever percent of the time. So to be able to take some ownership, man, does that put you in a different posture to have that conversation. Yeah, I think it puts you in a really mature and holy posture, actually, to take some ownership for your stuff. Take ownership for your stuff, you don't take ownership for their stuff,
Roane Hunter 36:13
Never own something that you are not responsible for, or you didn't do, because what that's gonna breed is resentment.
Ben Derrick 36:22
Come on, winning that ownership in the right place. And, you know, in my life, I think the times where I've grown the most, I've sat down over a sheet of paper and wrote, wrote down at the top, what do I need to own here? Question mark. Yeah, and I think I'm only going to need a post it note. But I actually need a couple of pages in a journal.
Poster board.
Yeah, there's a billboard maybe? Yes, yeah, there's a lot of stuff that we can own. And that turns our focus into a more healthy location.
Roane Hunter 36:53
Well, even even in an argument, you know, I mean, maybe even comes with something that's like, out of the blue, not true. Is story in our head, whatever. And then I started to, you know, my voice level goes up a couple of notches. And, you know, I get defensive, you know, initially, you know, I can own that, because that's not the man I want to be, I want to be able to sit and will be able to listen, I want to be able to empathize, and I want to be able to be curious and not furious. So I can own that. Because that's not that's not what I'm about. or want to be, I may still do it. It's not where I want to get to.
Ben Derrick 37:40
But furious feels so good Roane.
Roane Hunter 37:42
Oh, powerful.
Ben Derrick 37:45
Powerful! I have made fire!
Roane Hunter 37:46
That's right, absolutely.
Ben Derrick 37:50
Yeah. There's probably something to that. Having that sense of ownership and admitting something feels weak. Yeah, I made a mistake, though. Yeah, I was wrong. Of course, you made a mistake. Oh, yeah. You woke up today, didn't you?
Roane Hunter 38:05
Yeah. One of the things that we coach is just like, man, stop saying I'm sorry. You know, it's just so trite. It's really meaningless. You know, I'm sorry. Maybe, if you just lead with, you know, I was wrong to talk to you that way. I mean, it's got more weight to it. Right. And it's like, if I was wrong, well, then there is a right. And maybe I could do it right. Next time. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 38:34
And so this allows us I think, this posture, this relational posture, allows us to give us, give us the best chance to block the most resentment, like that's what's going to do it for us, if we can just adopt a posture of ownership, and to see relationships, and I do, I'm able to witness these often inside a healthy men's community, there's ownership occurring here, that person is owning that and that person is owning that nobody's having to defend their worth here. And I think they're going to be fine. How does that work? But it does, ownership moves in, and it is the silver bullet to a lot of resentment that can build because it takes the other person off shift of having to manage your crap. You know, it's a beautiful thing.
Roane Hunter 39:20
It is, you know, and it's, we've talked about it, you know, the Drama Triangle. And, you know, ownership is one of the positions and oftentimes, we tell couples a great place to start when you're in the crazy dance, the red triangle, if you want to get to the green is just move to ownership. You know, if we can own something that we've done, don't own something you haven't done, but if we can start there, typically what you'll see is the other person, they'll start settling down.
Ben Derrick 39:56
And they're ready to receive what you have to say because they can take the gloves off, right in the sense of they don't need them anymore, right? Yeah. Not in a sense, they're getting more aggressive. But when you start using language inside of a marriage, like you just said, I was wrong. One of my most recent words that I use in my family is actually making fun of me for it, because that's the kind of dynamic we have. But I have said to sons and to wife. That was inappropriate. Good, completely not appropriate. Yeah. And I was wrong for doing that. It wasn't what I intended. So my heart's not dark here. But boy, that was ugly. And I didn't mean it.
Roane Hunter 40:38
Yeah. It's much more powerful. Yeah. Just just it carries more weight. impactful.
Ben Derrick 40:44
Yeah. I love to hear in response to that inside my friendships, too. Thank you.
Roane Hunter 40:50
Yeah. Thank you. That's all.
Ben Derrick 40:53
You dont't have to move and clean it up. So I'd like to do this before we wrap up this episode, because we graze up against it. And I was left wanting. The way that faith communities meet people in their vulnerability, I think is really, really broken. And I know that there are a lot of our listeners who have probably, in their vulnerability, gone to a church environment, a Christian environment and tried to be vulnerable with what they knew. And they were met with a pretty damaging version of do better, or I mean, we see this happen a lot, right. So what advice can we give to people who have gone to the institution, as we would call it, with their vulnerability, trying to admit some things? And then they're met with something that results in them saying, Don't do that again. Right. What do we say to that group of people?
Roane Hunter 41:45
Oh, man. Yeah, you know, listen to our episode on helper trauma. I can't remember which one.
Ben Derrick 41:52
that's way back, yeah.
Roane Hunter 41:53
Titled helper trauma. Yeah. Because so often, we go to people seeking help. And then what we get is much more harmful, or more more damage. And I think, you know, part of it is one of the things we have to realize is that people go into these ministry positions, these helper roles, and this is true in counseling, and research bears it out is that the most of them come from broken homes or dysfunctional homes. There was a lot of stuff that was going on, and they kind of decided that they could be Jesus, they could be saving the world. And so they move into these helping professions. Again, I'm not throwing rocks that that's just statistically true. And they've never done their own work and we call them. They're not wounded healers, they're unhealed wounders. Right. And so they are inflicting their love on the on the poor people that are walking in the door. And it's just the idea. It doesn't matter who it is Pastor, counselor, friend, somebody that you're gonna go talk to number one, you need to be sure that they are safe people. They can hold confidence, they're not going to pass judgment. They're going to listen and empathize. And and probably not give you advice. Hopefully not, 'cause It's usually terrible. But it's, they're safe people. And that's part of our growth is discerning safe people from unsafe people. And oftentimes in that ministry setting, whether it's church or counseling, or whatever it is, they've just never done their work. And so they, it will be more harmful than helpful.
Ben Derrick 43:53
And we would say, don't give up on the process, right? Just change the place that you're doing the process. And you can figure that out very early. Oh, yeah. The key is, when you're about five minutes into that, what's supposed to be an hour long conversation, finding something else to get out of there. Oh, I'm sorry, I've got to go. Because you have that feeling. And then don't take ownership for the things that that person says, oh, yeah, don't own that stuff on the drive out of there. Because that's the thing that shuts down the process. And then you've got resentment still building inside of your key relationships. Don't give up on that instinct that took you to that place in the first place. To want to start taking ownership for your life and for your story and for the things that you've done. You just need to change the place and we would love actually if people would reach out to us through the channel of this podcast, reaching out through the website to say, hey, I need a place to start taking ownership. We know people. That can do this for folks.
Roane Hunter 44:55
You know, we always say we got more resources. Right here the You've got problems, and certainly between the intensives that we do, the men's coaching weekends that we offer, the coaches that we have available that can work with people across the country. You know, and boy, you know the thing about the people that we have working with us. Are, they're people that have done their own work. And that's what you got to find if you want to get better. Not bitter.
Ben Derrick 44:56
Yeah, that is the key, isn't it? So let's do this as we're wrapping this episode. What's the best way to hook into that? Website? Phone number?
Roane Hunter 45:40
Yeah, the website. Certainly the sexgodchaos.com is the website for the book and the podcast. And there's links on there to our counseling coaching practice, which is LifeWorks counseling. And there's, you can do an appointment request, right there on the website. That's the easiest way. And then certainly for you, getting in touch with Ben. Yeah. What? What would be the best way for somebody to track you down?
Ben Derrick 46:12
Yeah thanks for asking similar website, benderrick.com. I've put some information up there. So you can shop me from a distance, which I think is very healthy. I want you to know as much about me as possible, before you start to trust me with your stories. And we have scores of people behind both of our efforts that are people that are good at this that we can get folks to but we would love nothing more than to help a larger section of of the listening population to this podcast, because what keeps us awake at night, is people who are continuing to struggle through these issues, in isolation and alone. So sexgodchaos.com or benderrick.com. Either one of those are going to lead to a lot of the same places. And we can get you the help that you probably have been looking for for a very long time.
Roane Hunter 47:00
Absolutely.
Ben Derrick 47:03
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