In this thought-provoking episode, Roane and Ben delve deep into the intricacies of human desires and the often-misunderstood nature of connection. The conversation begins with thoughts on our desires, challenging the conventional view that often associates them solely with physical needs. They suggest that beneath the surface of our perceived need for sex lies a profound longing for connection, tracing its roots back to our creation.
Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God, and chaos podcast, conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Ron Hunter. Let's jump right in. Ron, it's that time again.
Roane Hunter 0:30
Man, I can't believe we're back in the studio, once again.
Ben Derrick 0:34
we say every time in the intro, this is one of our favorite things to do. I, what I really wish I could do is quit my job and just do this.
Roane Hunter 0:40
Yeah, wouldn't that be great?
Ben Derrick 0:42
It would be amazing. In fact, that's kind of on my bucket list.
Roane Hunter 0:45
We could just do this all day long and just kind of sit here and shoot the breeze.
Ben Derrick 0:50
Well, I think part of what draws us into this is that we figured out that it's actually helping people. Getting behind a microphone and having these conversations. And I think the thing that people are telling me is, it's very nice to hear these conversations happen in the privacy of my own home or vehicle and get the information without having to just get out there and say, yes, my life is chaotic, you know, which is pretty interesting. We're able to reach into people's worlds and say, Hey, here's some helpful information.
Roane Hunter 1:18
Yeah, maybe all of our lives are chaotic. You know, that's, that's one of the things you figure out in this journey. It's like, man, we're not alone.
Ben Derrick 1:27
Yeah, I always ask my client base to define normal.
Roane Hunter 1:30
Yeah, I always say it's just a setting on the dryer. That's right. That's all it is.
Ben Derrick 1:35
Yeah, permanent press, normal... yeah. No one is normal. Maybe we should do an episode titled No one is. The problem is we were not even anywhere close to the average or the median and society of normal. We'd have to bring in a guest for sure.
Roane Hunter 1:52
Yeah. Well, we do have Fakebook. To help us figure out what normal is.
Ben Derrick 1:56
that is true. That is true. Speaking of bringing in experts, man of our guests been lights out lately, or what?
Roane Hunter 2:03
It has been just fun. Fun. No doubt.`
Ben Derrick 2:07
The the level of honesty. And I think for me that this may be the magic to this podcast is we're just fully committed to honesty. We just don't have time for anything else anymore. There's a sense of urgency in our society. There's a sense of urgency over family dynamics. I mean, there's just no need any longer to try to bypass the truth. It's not helping anyone. We've proven that over and over again. It's time to get serious. Yeah,
Roane Hunter 2:32
you probably get this question often. But people ask me, like, how do you sit and listen to people's problems all day long, and I may have talked about this before, but it continually comes up people say that all the time. And my response is now man, I it is life giving, because I'm sitting in a room with people that are actually talking about real stuff, and it is life giving, because we're getting down into the bone and the marrow of the reality of life. But like if I gotta go to some dinner party or some social function it that is life sucking. It is draining, cuz it's just all shallow and fake and nothingness.
Ben Derrick 2:33
You're not a wave tops guy.
Roane Hunter 2:42
I just can't do it anymore.
Ben Derrick 3:23
I'll admit behind this mic, though. I used to be that guy. As a chameleon. I loved those environments. Because I could be anything I wanted to be during that time, you know, but emotionally it's not like I was faking who my whole life but I in those moments and those hours, I could just chameleon myself to the hilt, and have a great time. You know, just interviewing other people and oh, yeah, tell me more about that. It was the complete shadow side of who I actually was.
Roane Hunter 3:52
Well, you were a pastor.
Ben Derrick 3:58
I wasn't talking about the lobby Roane!
Roane Hunter 4:00
you know, it's just it's so easy. Yeah, you got paid to do that. Yeah. To be a chameleon.
Ben Derrick 4:06
can always count on you to shame me at the beginning of these episodes.
Roane Hunter 4:09
Never be honest, hide all your crap, yeah.
Ben Derrick 4:13
Yeah, this is the part where we say, I did that differently, though. Right? Yeah,
Roane Hunter 4:17
We just lost all our pastor listeners. Again! Maybe they keep coming back, hoping that it's gonna be it's gonna be different. But no, it's just pretty consistent.
Ben Derrick 4:27
So you said something a couple of weeks ago when we were together and it it really arrested, me hearing this way that you pointed out the difference between those two things. And his teaching that we give men a lot but for whatever reason, at that time, I was like, Wow, this could be revolutionary for people who are a lot especially relationally. They're locked in conflict because they're actually arguing about the wrong things. This is the Sex God and Chaos podcast, right? So you know that we're going to be talking about about sex. So if you're in the vehicle with your kids, you may want to put In the AirPods, for this one, but talking about the difference between a sexual need, which I know already, I can just calm down, and we're going to talk about a sexual need or a sexual desire and how couples get those, both male and female, get those things confused that there, they're not the same thing. You know, there are differences between the two. two very
Roane Hunter 5:22
Two very distinct things. You know, basically, yeah, I think we go to the definition of certainly needs versus wants, your needs are things that are essential to our survival. And, while wants are things that we may desire. And of course, when we get into sex, for us men, we've kind of been programmed culturally, all the stuff that we've grown up with. And certainly we throw the porn thing in there and desire gets twisted around as a need. And it's one of the things fundamentally that I begin to work when I'm working with a guy is beginning to separate out, you know, what is a need, and what is a desire. And sex is a desire and not a need, always say, throughout recorded history, not one time, and maybe it's out there, I just haven't come across it. But no man ever has died from lack of orgasm. But it's it's so prevalent in the thinking that somehow I've got to have this. And it's not, because it is a desire. And our desires are, you know, God puts it on us to control our desires. I mean, that's that's the genesis passage with Cain and Abel, is that you know, that word desire appears when Kane's getting ready to kill Abel, and God comes to him, and he says, This desire that is inside of you, if you don't master it, it will destroy you. And that Hebrew word is like all the dark desires. And certainly lust is in there, and murder, because that's the context. But it's all the dark desires and we can learn to control and manage our desires.
Ben Derrick 7:20
So let's talk about this at a at a very basic level. And by basic, I mean, let's reduce the complexity. When spouses in particular start arguing, man, that is a complex situation. My question is around this, we experienced this both male and female as a need. I mean, that's where everybody starts, really, you know, this is a need of mine. And as I'm helping friends and my clients navigate even being single as adults, that this is a number one, even when I'm talking with clients about divorce, which unfortunately, we know does happen. One of the first questions that they asked me is, how am I supposed to be single and celibate, I don't even know. They'd rather stay miserably married then face the prospect of not having sex until they wake up with someone else. So where does that come from? Where why do we convince ourselves that sex is actually a need?
Roane Hunter 8:18
Well, I think part of it is because we don't even understand our desires. Because up underneath the need, or the desire for sex, or the way we think it's a need, is really, it's a desire for connection. And that goes back to birth. Because you know, when we're born, we are cut off from the whole. That's where the word sex comes from. It's like the word dissect, bisect, it's the Latin word is Sokar. A, and it means to be cut off. So when we're born, we are cut off from the hole because we are actually part of another human being, literally. And then we're cut off from that, and in our desire, is this reconnecting to the whole. And that's the long term work of you know, recovery is this idea of connection. So it's all connected. But the desire for connection, we would call it the longing for intimacy, not sex. Intimacy is just simply my desire for knowing and being known for connection, emotional connection. But what happens sex becomes the form of connection in so many relationships.
Ben Derrick 9:38
So what we're actually after the thing feels like and I use that word intentionally, it feels like connection. But in the end, it's temporary. It really isn't. Is that how it works. This is when we have multiple partners or the desire just cannot be satisfied. And we start arguing about number of days per week that we're having sex Oh, yeah, that's what leads to all that. Oh, yeah.
Roane Hunter 10:02
Because it's the deeper desire is connection. Even in, you know Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, at the bottom level, or just the physiological needs, right. And that's food, clothing, shelter, the basic needs for survival. Well, there's guy named Dr. Matthew Lieberman, his book is called "Social". And he proposes that, that that Maslow got it wrong, because the basic human need it is connection, because a human baby cannot survive without connection to another human being. And so that basic, at the core of who we are, connection is what we're after. Because it, that is actually a need. And so I love the idea that that it is food, clothing, shelter, and connection, because survival depends on it as a human baby. And that longing for connection is what is up underneath the desire, the sexual desire.
Ben Derrick 11:07
So we attach that to sex. And you would say, or a question I would pose to you, is: we have inflated the importance of sex in our lives, because we have this underpinning that is basic to all humans of being connected, and we have associated the primary our most important and probably because it's linked to so much pleasure is sex. That is the way to be connected.
Roane Hunter 11:34
Yeah. And I mean, certainly, you know, in a healthy relationship and a married relationship, we certainly come from a faith based perspective and believe that that is, what sex was designed and created for. We will use sex for connection, even in marriage. Because we don't know how to do intimacy, so much of what we work with, we just call it an intimacy disorder. Because the problem is we don't know how to connect on deeper levels. And when you're working with a couple, you know, and I'm just going to use the man as the problem, because he's been...
Ben Derrick 12:14
Why not?
Roane Hunter 12:15
Yeah, because I'm not dumb enough to say that women are the problem. But the the Okay, the guys getting busted, found out watching porn, and then that becomes the problem. And it certainly is a problem. I'm not saying that, however, the dynamics of the relationship are problematic as well. And that's why it takes two people, if you're married, in order for this recovery thing to actually work, because you can't make a relationship by yourself that takes two people. And for each person in the relationship coming to that understanding that there are issues on both sides of the fence when it comes to intimacy. And then again, I always have to offer the caveat that intimacy is not sex, that got twisted around sex, even biblically in translations, that sex intimacy became a euphemism for sex, and that is just has done a terrible disservice. Because it really, ultimately it was a spiritual term attributed to relationship with God, knowing our Creator and being known by him. And at the root of every couple ship is an intimacy disorder. And certainly, we've got to deal with the infidelity, the pornography, the whatever form that has taken. But the deeper issue, the long term issue is moving from unhealthy relationship, unhealthy intimacy, which is really false intimacy, into true intimacy, what God created and designed it to be. But that takes two people. And it takes a lot of work. Because what we saw modeled growing up mom and dad's marriage or not marriage, or whatever we grew up in, is our model. And we are playing that out in the relationship. And each person in the relationship has that baggage in some way, shape, or form. It may look different for the husband and it looks different. His looks different than hers. But it's always there.
Ben Derrick 14:32
So what you've actually done just now, I don't know that you realized you were doing it.
Roane Hunter 14:39
Probably not.
Ben Derrick 14:40
But just listening from this side of the table, you've really explained, or you've given an answer to when people say, Well, why would I go to counseling or why would I go to therapy that just doesn't make any sense? "I'm over that" or "I've moved past that", and we we've assigned to a very narrow group of things that would require going to therapy but the problem that you just described, I would say, is universal. We all mirror what was modeled for us and guaranteed because every marriage has it. There are inconsistencies. There are immaturities, is when it comes to intimacy, and we've picked up on those and we're, we're living those out. I often ask my clients, "hey, who taught, the first time you heard the word intimacy, Where was it? Was it from your father?"
Roane Hunter 15:26
Negative.
Ben Derrick 15:27
Negative. Most guys like hey, I'm 40. I'm still waiting on the sex talk.
Roane Hunter 15:31
Yeah, it's yeah, the birds and the bees. Yeah. Always love that when somebody says that. Yeah, exactly.
Ben Derrick 15:36
Yeah, exactly. That's, when you know, right. So it makes a lot of sense that this is an intricate problem. And we find that this offers a great deal of freedom to couples who are caught in the chaos of sex. And the chaos of sexual brokenness that works its way out in pornography or extramarital affairs, to be able to say, there are a lot of ingredients in this recipe. And it's not just a one sided issue, it's a two sided issue. And we're not casting blame. But we do need to walk 360 around the couple and say, what are all the things that could be influencing the way that things are going right now. And that just takes time. And it takes someone external to the marital dynamic, to be able to bring some truth to it. And honestly, to give enough space for each member of the couple, to pull out what's going on underneath the surface? So I'd like to take the conversation this way. If if we could, I'm going to pretend like I'm asking you permission. I'm not. Yeah, I've done. That's right. I've done thankfully, a little bit of my work. And I've noticed in my own story, and become aware in my own story, that I was using physical pleasure to regulate unwanted emotions. So it put me in a posture where it did feel like I needed much like someone who's addicted to a substance, I need this thrill of this chase, or I need this validation from this woman to settle down this unwanted emotion or feeling. And there's nothing else that can do that for me. So I have to go do this thing. Do you see that happening a lot. When you're interacting with men, that's usually the case or a lot of the times the case?
Roane Hunter 17:23
Yeah, because, you know, as men, just from an emotional standpoint, we're we're kind of behind the eight ball, so to speak, because we don't know how to do emotions. For women. You know, certainly there's some women that don't but, but typically, women just are wired for emotion. They're wired for relationship. And so they do it better than we do, just because of the fundamental creation. And so what we've gotten is man is just this, you know, basically big boys don't cry, you know, suck it up, buttercup, and you'll be okay, rub some dirt on it. Right? And so we don't do emotions well, and it's one of the things that I see, I call it, you know, our emotions, are kind of siloed or compartmentalize. Because that's why, you know, when we're in addict mode, we live in the extremes. And we live in the extremes emotionally, because Emotionally, I don't know how to handle of, you know, feelings of sadness, I don't know how to handle feelings of fear, which is anxiety. I don't know what to do with that, because I've never been coached I've never been taught, probably did not see it modeled very well by my father. Certainly I didn't. And I know you didn't either. And that's the case for most men. And so we'll go extreme, and it becomes almost like black and white. It's either all good and that's kind of the pleasure side. If I'm doing this, I feel good. But if over here, it's like, oh man, there's, I'm sad, I'm hurting, I'm in pain. And a lot of times I'm not even aware of it because I haven't taken the time to really began to become aware of what's going on inside of me emotionally. And so I just shut that down. And I go for the pleasure, the comfort, the validation of another person sexing me because oh, now I feel good. I'm wanted, I'm desired. And so it becomes this construct of: I've gotta go get this in order to be okay. And we will use our wives. We call it vaginal masturbation, often. It's not connected sex. It's just unhealthy sex. And so I've got to be able to begin to understand what's going on inside of me. Not that yeah, I got to start going into moding everywhere that's..
Ben Derrick 20:02
those guys kind of make me cringe.
Roane Hunter 20:04
It's kind of pathetic. But I've got to be aware of what is going on inside of me. And so we take this desire that is legitimate and then we make it illegitimate. Because we're basically bypassing the the whole process of intimacy and connection. And sex is connecting, there's no doubt. It's a connecting act. And it's one reason we'll watch porn watching people connect. And we might be a bunch of people on the screen connecting, but we're, we're voyeuristically longing for connection.
Ben Derrick 20:44
So is this what allows a relationship in the infatuation phase to survive to thrive, because often see this bell curve, where we meet, it's exciting, there's usually a communal aspect to that, then we isolate, we engage in this behavior sexually, and everything is just amazing. And I love you forever. And we will and let's not even talk about the falling in and falling out. That's a totally separate episode. But then you see in some couples are able to ride this wave for two years, you know, three years, but eventually you see reality coming to call, like, wait a minute, there has to be more than just this. And I often see with the people that I work with, the female usually wakes up to this first. This isn't authentic or genuine. However, whatever word you would want to layer on top of it. But that is a very common dynamic inside of marriages, isn't it?
Roane Hunter 21:41
Well, yeah, and you know, we, we, we keep that crazy tucked in pretty well during the dating process. Well, part of it too, it doesn't really surface until we get into it, right? Because then what happens? It's, it's what we saw model begins to show up, right? What we learned what we experienced, in saying our parents, relating or not relating. And then all of that begins to show up. Once we get past the chemical process of infatuation. And that infatuation stage of relationship, man, everything's glorious, right? This person is the greatest person ever. And they can do no wrong until you start living under the same roof. And then all the little quirks and all the little things that drive us crazy begin to surface. And then you see the, you know, we get into our heads and we get into rejection and abandonment and attachment and all those things that we did not get and now we're trying to get it from somebody that probably doesn't know how to give it either, because they didn't get it when they were growing up. And so now you got two ticks without a dog. And in the end, they show up in our office, right?
Ben Derrick 23:01
Yeah. Ideally, they would begin talking to someone about this. But, you know, speaking of being a pastor, I was involved with a lot of weddings. And initially, that was an exciting thing to be able to stand with people who are uniting before God in holy matrimony, and all of those things. But over time, I will be honest with you, I grew very cynical, I hated doing weddings. I'm so glad I don't have to do those things anymore. Because once I learned and maybe this is another layer of this conversation. But once I learned that the top of the addiction cycle is fantasy, then that's the primary way that I viewed all of the shenanigans around two lives coming together. It feels completely like fantasy. And if you think it's not the you just need to be in the room with with the groom and the groomsmen to understand. That's reality. I wish we could shoot a GoPro into that room, and walk and show it to the bride and say, this is this is what's real. I know you have the napkins that you wanted, and everybody's getting the beautiful hors d'oeuvres and we have an open bar and you've been dreaming about this dress for your whole life. But the second you take that off tonight, this is what you're gonna this is it right?
Roane Hunter 24:17
that's what you got.
Ben Derrick 24:18
That's what you got, you know. So now I'm not trying to blame, you know, all the women. That's okay. You're just participating in fantasy, the men are participating in it as well, almost from the jump, you know, we're doing this dance that isn't reality. Which is why it's so great when people have this extended courtship or dating period, because reality is going to accidentally show up at one point or another, but the whole construct in our society. Basically, we publicly want to celebrate this fantasy and then when it hits the fan inside of the marriage, there's no one to be found. Right?
Roane Hunter 24:50
Oh yeah, I often you know, will say that, you know, women in course they've been programmed. It's all those stories, you know, Cinderella Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, you know the knight on the white horse, the prince is going to come and kiss them and, and ride away on the white horse into the sunset and live happily ever after. Well, that's just not the way it works. Because what, what you actually get is a you get a drunk guy riding a donkey backwards. I mean, that's because that's that's the....
Ben Derrick 25:24
Yeah was that wasn't true. It's just true, right?
Roane Hunter 25:26
I mean, that's the bachelor party and the groomsmen in the room, as you're talking about before, that there's reality, right. And so you've got basically these two fantasies that are colliding because you know, in a man's head, oh, wow, we're gonna get married, and I'm gonna have all the sex that I want and, and that's gonna take care of my porn problem, right. And that's going to cure be the cure all. And, of course, we know it doesn't work. Because marriage is emotional distress, and emotional distress is what's driving our acting out behavior. And we may be able to contain that and kind of hold that underwater, like, you know, beach ball for a little while. But boy, when things start ramping up, we're gonna go back to the thing that worked for us. And that's why you'll see, guys, you know, like, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And then they're back into the porn or whatever it is, when things heat up, and they will. So let's get back to
the part of the conversation of the the needs versus desires, because admittedly, that can be confusing, especially when you drop it into a marital dynamic. And I know all of our listeners aren't married, we don't need to assume that. But a lot of them are probably in relationships, or have been in a relationships.
IF you're not married, pay attention. Be n the lookout.
Ben Derrick 26:45
Sooner you can engage with reality, the better. But it can be difficult. And I'm admitting just a little bit of vulnerability here. It can be difficult to determine which is which. So are there tests? Or is there a definition that we could say, alright, if it falls into this column, it's this if it falls into this column, it's this. And then additionally, how do we start talking to the people that were involved with, especially sexually about this conversation? Man, that seems frightening.
Roane Hunter 27:14
Oh it is, because it's vulnerable, right? When we start becoming aware, and understanding, you know, what we grew up in, and, you know, it wasn't all good. It wasn't all bad, either, it's not blaming that. But it's just reality in, you know, part of our awareness and part of our growth is I've got to begin to understand that, and kind've figure out the things that I didn't get, and I've got to go get those. And oftentimes, you know, it's not our spouse, that is going to meet all of those needs, that are legitimate needs. The need to be heard and understood, you know, those seven desires that we talked about, to be affirmed to be blessed, which means to add life to, to be safe, emotionally safe, to be touched, which is not just sexual touch, to be included and to be chosen. And when we didn't get those needs met, then we're going to try to be getting those met in typically an illegitimate way, because we don't know how to do it in a legitimate way. And we will pay out, and we will sulk, and we will withdraw, and we'll get angry, and we'll go defensive, and we'll do all the things that we do, longing for connection, but sabotaging it every step of the way.
Ben Derrick 28:31
So it's it looks like this, I guess I would propose and the correct me if I'm wrong. You're having a conversation with your spouse or your significant other. And what you're thinking is, I need sex. How do I make that happen? You know, what's my plan?
Roane Hunter 28:49
"I'll do the dishes"
Ben Derrick 28:50
all day I will make you know, to be able to replace that internally, male or female to replace that internally, being able to tell yourself I need connection. And I need connection. Here's the problem with that, I think I know how to have sex. I don't know how to connect. So I'm not going to go towards a deficiency in that way. I'm just going to accept the the false solution to the problem. So maybe we should wrap this episode in the next couple of minutes talking about connection, and you make the point frequently, that of all those seven basic desires of the heart needs of the heart, that they can all happen without sex.
Roane Hunter 29:32
100% oh, I say you know, we're, you and I both are very fortunate. Blessed. We have life added to us, by a lot of men because we do life together. And you know, all of those needs those desires of the heart can be met in a healthy men's group, right even touch, you know, not having sex with any of the guys in my men's group. But we do hug Every time we see each other, and I mean, that's just basic human touch that we all need. So those can all be met in a healthy group, whether it's your man or woman getting a healthy group, and you know, those things will happen. And so when we start getting those met, well now I'm able to sit in a relationship with someone that I love and am committed to it, because now I've been practicing over in this other space, how to do this. And then I can get on the playing field. But it requires vulnerability and vulnerability is you know, just being honest, being transparent. What's going on in my crazy head, you know, the things that I'm doing, I'm not going to hide it, I'm not going to keep secrets, I'm going to show up in the relationship. But when we've grown up, and we've never experienced that, man, we are emotionally well defended.
Ben Derrick 31:01
So to be able to move into a space that is with... same gender, we should put it that way. Yeah. That we know, here's how we the test that we put in place, have you done your work? Is your life less chaotic than mine? Is a good way to put that. Have you done your work, and we get into this, this area, this arena, we sit in these circles, and we start to get reps, I see so many men especially that, for instance, will listen to a podcast episode on the way home from work and decide, today's the day I'm going to I'm just gonna let all this out, I'm gonna say all these things, I'm gonna vomit all over my spouse.
Roane Hunter 31:43
No. Don't do that.
Ben Derrick 31:44
Don't do that.
Roane Hunter 31:46
Whatever you do, don't try this at home.
Ben Derrick 31:44
Do not. You move into an arena, and it's going to take, here's maybe some brutal honesty, it's going to take some work, man, it's going to take some work to find that arena, and then begin opening up and all you're doing is sharing your story and allowing other people to drop wisdom into your life. So just to pair it, some of that that happened to my own story, as we sat together in a therapy setting as I sat on the deck and deer camp that we talk about often, for me to be armed with the information that I can look at my wife and say, I want you but I don't need you. I mean, if I were to say that in Sunday school, right, I would get kicked out. But it is one of the most healthy things that has ever happened in my marital dynamic. And my wife met me with Oh, thank goodness. She was, finally she was so glad to hear that. I would not have figured that out. Just by trying to box around and engage in the existing dynamic inside of my marriage. I had to get into a group of men who had and we're going to talk about this in a future episode, have figured out how to break away from codependence Oh, yeah, and understand that I can and this is a little bit of soft language, but I can be filled up my cup can be full sitting with other men and experiencing connection and intimacy with those other men, then I go home, less determined to have sex with my wife as this as if it is a need. If we don't do that, then somebody's unplugged me and I can't make it through the next day. I've experienced fulfillment and purpose and connection in a way that allows me to present to my spouse, my significant other as settled. It's so much easier to engage with intimacy with your spouse if you don't present as a needy.
Man. You know, it's we talk about it often that idea that, you know, I want to take my strength to the woman and not my neediness. Because, boy, she picks up on it right? And she knows if I'm being needy, and needing sex, and you know, my experience. My wife, she doesn't like that. She lets me know. Yes. But But oftentimes, you know, we're living in, you know, from kind of a victim mindset. And certainly when we're acting out and whatever form that takes, we're producing shame. And so my shame will keep me in this needy position because somehow I feel less than, I feel unworthy of love even because that's what my shame tells me. And so I'm kind of going to my wife, begging her to validate me in some way and, you know, that's not her job. My validation comes from certainly, you know, first and foremost, who Jesus tells me I am and then I gotta have Jesus with skin on, other men, telling me who I am or reminding me of that. And we have to encourage one another daily, as Paul told us, and that just simply means to put heart into one another and when, you know, the Bible talks about heart, it's always about that's emotions, right? And so I've gotta be dealing with my emotions, I gotta be aware that I actually have them. And but boy, so often, as men, we just put all of our emotional eggs in the wife basket, expecting her to meet all of our emotional needs, that most of the time when we don't know what those are.
that's a really crummy thing to do to somebody.
Roane Hunter 35:32
It sucks. It's a terrible thing.
Ben Derrick 35:35
Wow, thanks for attaching to me. And making me make this better for you for the rest of our lives.
Roane Hunter 35:41
I need you to complete me. Yeah, Jerry Maguire.
Ben Derrick 35:44
I was just thinking that it's like, we have this combination of Jerry Maguire, and the really nice Jesus that Christianity West has given us. And we're trapped. I mean, we like those are our solutions. You complete me, and I need to present especially in religious communities, as if this woman, or this man is my everything. They are my everything. It's like Nicholas Sparks. Hallmark movies, give me break. And we were in that we know that we don't like it. No, but it's what sold to us. And the crazy part about this is we feel like we should like it. Yeah. So it's a little difficult to separate out. So let's kind of put a pin in this episode, because I want to make sure we get enough time to discuss codependence because that is, that is just to the right of the conversation we're having right now. Would we say together today that the list of needs is very small?
Roane Hunter 36:43
It really is when you boil it down. I mean, it's pretty basic, right? And that's why, you know, I mean, of course, our culture we live in and in the West in America, is like all of our basic needs are met. Right? If we were out there having to forage for food and you know, try to find a cave to sleep in. We wouldn't be focused on this self actualization, and self esteem, and all these things where we start getting up in our mind, and we live in our head. And we're thinking too much about things that really don't matter. Because basic needs are basic needs. And then if we focus on healthy relationships, loving others well, which is kind of the goal of the Christian journey to be a great lover, because that's what Jesus was. And it's not mamby pamby. It's truth telling, it's confronting, it's hard. It's a choice. There's a lot to love. And again, culturally, we, you know, we don't know what that is. And the church has kind of done a terrible job of like, what is love other than, you know, Jesus up there in the stained glass holding his little, you know, therapy support animal. He loves the little children, and it's like, man, we've been sold a bill of goods on a lot of different fronts.
Ben Derrick 38:12
It frustrates me a lot to exist in a world where love being fierce, has been bastardized. Even demonized.
Roane Hunter 38:24
Oh yeah, "It's a threat."
Ben Derrick 38:25
"It's a threat. Oh, my gosh, this, this person is so aggressive. You're so aggressive" and look at where that's taken us. Yeah. I think the goal and I would hope the goal of all of our listeners would be to reclaim so many of these words like intimacy, like love, to be able to say, I can be fierce with my love. I mean, certain looks that I get in my eyes, as I'm looking out to the culture around me. It's because I love my family, and I'm looking to protect my family. And you're going to think, man, that guy's not very nice. You're damn right. I'm not very nice. You're threatening my sons. So I'm not going to be nice. And I really don't give a damn how you feel about me. 100%. I mean, I think some of that's got to move its way back in because we have so many of us who and when I talk with men, especially when we start having that kind of conversation, the first thing they throw back to me is well, my wife would never go for that. And then I say back to them, how do you know? Yeah, you've never done it. How do you know" It may be the very thing that she's looking for. And it may be the very thing that your children are looking for is for you to activate, for you to Zakar, for you to initiate around these big issues. So just to convince the people listening, that going victim is not nearly as attractive as you think it is.
Roane Hunter 39:48
It is not. And man, I've seen it when a guy really begins to I guess man up is maybe the wrong word, but I know what you mean but just you know, becoming Well, boundaried. Knowing what you're about as a man, your values and your integrity, which that that is boundaries. And I've got to get that real clear in my head, I've got to define that, write it out, then this is what I'm about, this is who I am. And then I've got to live that out. But when we're just trying to please and appease, and go along to get along and be nice, my experience, women, you might think that they like that, but boy, they don't, because eventually, they're just gonna be... they will become controlling, because nature abhors a vacuum, they will fill the void, and they will get things done, because they have to because as men, we are naturally passive. And we'll just let it happen. And, you know, you have to know that when you begin to kind of figure out who you are and kind of stand up, you know, the other person typically is going to give some pushback to that. But eventually, that's where respect comes from, rather than, somehow just being viewed as a passive, weak man who's, you know, who has a mama and not a wife.
Ben Derrick 41:17
That's a very troubling situation for people to find themselves in. So just to circle back, and to wrap this up here, I think, because this is a conversation that covers a lot of different relational dynamics, getting back to the original topic to essentially take some time and figure out what are the things that are wants of mine that we we labeled desire, want kind of the same area? What are some things that are wants of mine that I'm treating as needs? And then who am I putting in jail? If they don't meet those quote, unquote, needs? Yeah, that's a great place to start that assessment and that awareness journey.
Roane Hunter 41:57
Yeah. And part of it, you know, we we equate sex with love. And so you know, our greatest need in all of life, scriptures clear about that, you know, God is love. And so our greatest need, it certainly is love and connection with God. And, you know, when we got to get that part straightened out first. And then but what happens, you know, sex gets twisted around the axle with love. And so now, because our greatest need is love, now sex is my greatest need, which is not a need, it's a desire, but sex equals love. And that is so not true.
Ben Derrick 42:40
Well, here's to more people getting that figured out and experiencing peace, and settledness inside of their relationships, because they have taken the step of courage to initiate these sorts of conversations in their in their most important relationships. We're for the people listening that are about to give this a shot.
Roane Hunter 42:59
Oh, man, always say course. You know, the younger listeners won't know this movie, but City Slickers. If you haven't seen it. It's a great movie. And the old cowboy in the movie is Jack Palance great old western movie star. His name is curly, and all he does is ride up to the City Slickers. And he just looks at them and he goes, holds his finger up one thing. I believe the one thing if we can get it straightened out in our lives, I do believe it is our sex and sexuality. It is core to who we are.
Ben Derrick 43:39
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