In this episode, Roane and Ben engage in a candid discussion about the roots of codependency and how it often traces back to our family of origin. The conversation explores the idea that the conditions for codependency are often set during our upbringing, with baggage packed into the metaphorical luggage of our relationships. Roane emphasize that everyone carries these hidden aspects, waiting to surface in their relationships. They delve into the role of family dynamics and the impact of childhood experiences in shaping codependent behaviors. The episode also touches on the influence of cultural and religious teachings, highlighting the challenges imposed by notions like "deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow Jesus." Listeners are invited to reflect on their own experiences and consider how the origins of codependency may be intertwined with what was modeled and taught during their formative years. Ultimately, the episode aims to shed light on the complexities of codependency, fostering understanding and self-awareness for healthier relationship dynamics.
Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God & Chaos podcast. The conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in.
Roane, I gotta tell you, I'm not really looking forward to this episode.
Roane Hunter 0:33
Yeah, it could maybe hit home close to home? I don't know.
Ben Derrick 0:37
I'm already feeling super sensitive about this discussion. What does that say about me?
Roane Hunter 0:41
You're always super sensitive. You're such a sensitive guy.
Ben Derrick 0:44
I'm just nice and sensitive. And that's the old me man.
Roane Hunter 0:49
You're recovering pastor.
Ben Derrick 0:50
Yeah, don't shame me with all that stuff. So, you know, I think I admitted a couple episodes ago. I just looked at my wife a couple of days ago and said, You know, I'm not a nice person. I'm just not. I'm going to stop trying to be.
Roane Hunter 1:03
That's called freedom.
Ben Derrick 1:07
I really am more comfortable with the word curmudgeon than I ever have been in my life.
Roane Hunter 1:11
Yeah. Walter! Get off my grass!.
Ben Derrick 1:16
You should see the looks that my teenage sons give me they're like, oh, of all of all the houses for us to be born into?
Roane Hunter 1:22
Yeah. Well, the least they don't call you Boomer like mine do sometimes.
Ben Derrick 1:29
Yeah, sometimes they do. You know, my son looked at the TV last night and said, Oh, come on. How hard is it to set up a streaming service? man we we've come a long way. I mean, the original PacMan game I had didn't even have a screen. It was like II remember the video games is just dots moving around
Roane Hunter 1:49
Pac Man. We had Atari. We had Pong. Big time. Pong. Yeah, that was it. That was the first, man well it was incredible.
Ben Derrick 2:00
Lot of advancements. But I will admit readily before we enter into this conversation, I am a fish out of water. I'm very early on in this process, which feels a little embarrassing to say, because I've been doing a lot of intentional work for a lot of years. But this you know, the tentacles of this idea runs so deep. I feel like you know, it's like when you're trying to dig up the bush in your lawn. How deep is the root structure on this thing? the more I dig, the deeper it goes. And I've experienced a little bit of freedom. That's why I wanted to have this conversation very publicly here today. Because I know there's a lot of people that are frustrated over this issue. And they don't they don't exactly know where to go once it's uncovered. And man, is it? Is it messy? Is it chaotic? And it certainly certainly impacts sex. And I would even say over my story. God was probably the biggest piece in this. Unfortunately, the way that God was sold to me so we are set to have a very exciting conversation today, maybe a lot more you than it is me and probably people will think well, this is nice. We've dropped in on Ben's therapy session. That's okay. It's alright. If it helps somebody. This is where we're going.
Roane Hunter 3:09
We'll violate HIPAA. It's okay.
Ben Derrick 3:11
Exactly. obviously, I'm fine with that. So the release we are attacking the idea of codependence
Roane Hunter 3:18
Oh man what a psychobabble buzzword right?
Ben Derrick 3:20
chills down the spine. I don't want to be codependent. You're codependent. We're all co-something
Roane Hunter 3:26
We're all codependent.
Ben Derrick 3:27
Yeah.
Roane Hunter 3:27
yeah. No doubt.
Ben Derrick 3:29
How do we even start this conversation? I'll let you go.
Roane Hunter 3:31
Well, as a recovering codependent..
Ben Derrick 3:34
Oh, you too?
Roane Hunter 3:35
Oh, dude
Ben Derrick 3:37
Me too sitting right here.
Roane Hunter 3:38
I'm just a little further down the road than you are but I used to think that you know when I got into recovery and you know I was the addict you know, I'm a man and my wife is codependent, right? That women are codependent not men. And I mean literally that was a thought which tells you a lot about where I was. But what I've realized over the years is oh my gosh, I was a lot more codependent than she was or is she ever was really she was in some ways but as far as just kind of the relational codependent thing she definitely was, but I was much more so trying to you know, please and appease manipulate control her thoughts or reactions, and trying to make sure you know, piece was maintained at some level and then include lying, that include manipulating that included a lot of things but you know, there was a pure motive in that I just wanted I wanted everything to be okay, it sounds so chivalrous, right?
Ben Derrick 4:52
Yes, it does, actually.
Roane Hunter 4:53
Yeah. Oh, yeah. No doubt.
Ben Derrick 4:55
So we're wanting to kind of maintain status quo. We don't want to disrupt things. We don't want to cause trouble and you mentioned the key word there. And I think it was on purpose control. Is that a big part of this?
Roane Hunter 5:05
There it is. You know, there's a lot of definitions for codependency. And, you know, our listeners, they may hear that word and it might be like, the word gaslighting?
Ben Derrick 5:19
trauma, triggered.
Roane Hunter 5:21
yeah, trigger. Yeah, all those words that we hear, you just you feel a little nauseous. It might be one of those words, however, there is something to it, for sure. But really, you know, codependency, I believe is just this idea of a compulsion to control or manage another person in order to get your, your emotional needs met, or your emotional desires for sure. But and we think that if we can manage them that we're going to be okay, so it's like, I'm okay, you're not okay. But if, if I control you and get you to respond the way that I need you to, I'll be okay. So it really, it is an addiction, because it's a compulsion to control. There's no doubt it, there's an addictive component to it. When we first got into recovery, you know, now, partners, the spouses of betrayal are called partners. But we first got into recovery. It was that, you know, I was the addict and Eva was the CO addict. Can't remember which one was first, I think I think they were co addicts first. And then partners became codependence that you still had the addict and the codependent. And when you start looking at what happens with betrayal, trauma in particular, there's a control factor that occurs of like, the spouse is trying to manage the other person's recovery. They're trying to control the behaviors there. There's a lot that goes into somehow, if I can be sure that you're okay, then I'm okay. And at the root of it, it's you know, it's safety and security, but um, it's manifesting as a compulsive controlling behavior so that I will feel okay. And you know, it the bottom line, it's when my needs for safety and security, emotional safety and security are not met. We have a real tendency to all be codependent.
Ben Derrick 7:42
When this couple walks into my practice, they both look absolutely exhausted. Right? Always because the the one on the other side is thinking, Okay, I've got to make sure that everything goes exactly this way. And if it doesn't go exactly that way, I've got to hide it, I've got to keep it secret, right? Or it will disrupt the piece. And then on the other side, the other person's thinking, "what are they not telling me?" I've got to make sure that this goes this way, here's this podcast, here's this book, here's this other person that you need to be in relationship with. And they're both just in this hyper vigilant state of just trying to make sure that everything goes exactly the way that it needs to go. And unfortunately, I see long term, these people end up hating one another, because it starts as deep seated resentment, I resent the fact that I'm having to accommodate and adjust and maintain all of these things, a lot of which you don't even know about. And then the other person is thinking, why won't you just do what I'm telling you to do. Because if you do what I'm telling you to do, then everything will be just fine. And it is very difficult to convince each person. This, this is really unwise, and I usually startm, and this, I lose a lot of female clients this way. The couples counseling doesn't go for very long. Because I look at the man and I say, Okay, this is great that you've put protection on your devices. And that's a great step. It's just a point of friction or resistance to pursue that. Is your wife, the first person that's notified when you view pornography? Absolutely, man, she needs to be the first personto know, and I'm like, that is a terrible terrible terrible idea. 100 per se like change that right now get whatever the software is, change that, and then that lights off all the codependence in the room.
Roane Hunter 9:26
Oh yeah. Oh, yeah. Because I don't have the control that I need in order to feel safe. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 9:34
But it's an exhausting false form of control and it never works.
Roane Hunter 9:38
Basically, you know, when when betrayal gets discovered, and whatever form it in some ways, it's like the I'm just gonna use the addict like me, man, you know, when this stuff comes to light, it's like I experienced a tremendous amount of freedom, just because now the secrets out in the room. And the thing of it is, you know, on my side of the fence, I was hiding all that it was all hidden. She did not know of my addiction and acting out behaviors, which is problematic because what that speaks to is Eva didn't know where the show up place was in relationship either because if you're in a relationship with somebody that's over in the bushes acting out, and you are at the show up place, you would know it. Right? And so what that speaks to another episode we talked about, and we talked about a lot, the intimacy disorder, because if you were attuned and attached and connected, you would know that your partner is not present. So again, even that is a problem. Because you didn't know it, well she didn't. And so, but in, on my side of the fence, I had been fighting this thing for many years, I came to Jesus at 20. And I was like, Okay, I gotta quit looking at porn. And but, you know, I couldn't because it was a full blown sexual addiction. And, and then at 27, when that came to light, and I admitted that, and I'd been in this huge battle and struggle of trying to stop fighting it, unbeknownst to her. Well, now, it's like, you know, it comes into the light, and wow, it felt so freeing. Well, the problem is, put the monkey on her back, because this thing that she did not know about, and now she's in a fight in her own fight. And in that fight, most of the time partners will resort to this codependent behavior of compulsively controlling the other trying to get needs met.
Ben Derrick 11:49
And the prevention of being injured again. I don't want to be hurt again, ever. So if I can, if I can do this, yeah, I don't want to be hurt again. Part of this conversation that intrigues me so much, because it's been part of my personal journey is this goes way, way back. This didn't start when you said I do. There were most likely a lot of things going on in your family of origin and in the home that you grew up in, that really set the conditions for you to be a certain percentage of codependent in your key relationships. Is that a good way to say though?
Roane Hunter 12:22
Absolutely. It's like, man, we got on the marriage train, and that stuff was packed in our baggage in our luggage, right? We all have it. And I always say it's in that compartment, you know, that zipper compartment up underneath, it's there. And then it begins to surface. But yeah, it the origins of it are always in what we grew up in what we saw modeled, and then man, you throw, you know, some good old, terrible Christian teaching and preaching. On top of that, it's, you know, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus. It's like this idea, like, you should have no desires, you should have no wants in a relationship, you should just die-to-self completely, and just be subjugated to the whims and emotions of the other person. It's a great setup, right? That's, that's, that's a good Christian, Ben, I don't know if you know that or not. And so well,
Ben Derrick 13:21
The distinction I can't figure out is, are we talking about good Christians or just compliant people.
Roane Hunter 13:26
Sheeple.
Ben Derrick 13:27
What are we out for? You know, do we want a group of compliant people that will go along with agendas that will give hard earned money to those agendas, even if they're completely crazy.
Roane Hunter 13:38
That will serve in the parking lot ministry? That's the most important job in the church.
Ben Derrick 13:43
Yeah, the amount of money that's just spent on...
How did you sell that? when you were a pastor.
Roane Hunter 13:48
did you actually sit with a guy and say, "Dude this is the most important job in the whole church"
Ben Derrick 13:53
Well I was a little bit more intelligent than that, but, yes. Yes, I did have that conversation though. Yeah, from the time that they get out of the car, to the time they get back in the car, you're the first impression, you're the first impression. So we're gonna put you out here in an MDOT vest.
Roane Hunter 14:06
I always say, I wish the guy had looked at you and said, Well dude it's that damn important, why don't you go do it and ill preach?
Ben Derrick 14:13
I could probably do a better job than you anyway. Right? Which some weeks they could have. Let's be honest about this. But yeah, the way that we all have our I would say all of our social constructs inside of Christianity depend on codependent compliant men, which is a big part of the problem. And every man in these scenarios can smell that from a mile away. That's why they walk in like, you know what, I'm just gonna be quiet and have my coffee and scroll through Instagram, or we or YouVersion that is kind of the Bible version of Instagram
Roane Hunter 14:49
God for Bible apps. Looks like I'm actually reading my Bible. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 14:54
And you have to have that look across your face which just trying to divide you know, 874 by nine Fine, and that gives you a real pensive look. But yeah, I think that this is a big part of the problem.
Roane Hunter 15:05
I've been outed. Yeah, exactly. When I'm on my phone, it's our church strategy. Yeah. Don't Don't tell our pastor. I'm riveted by every word.
Ben Derrick 15:14
Every word that's been planned for 15 hours this week, right. Part of the issue though, I think is as we start to attack codependence. It literally is everywhere. It's not just inside of marriage. I mean, some of the most sinister relationships I've had in my life I attached as a codependent, they were bosses. That was a really, really bad idea. But I did it and getting down to I know, we don't promote, you know, models specifically. But I've gained a lot of freedom over just studying the Enneagram because how it talks about relationships, not just personalities and how you like to do task, but I started to realize, I am a loyalist and a codependent, I am double screwed here, you know, I cannot get out of this construct. But then when I started digging deeper into it, I realized that in in my home growing up both great people I feel like I have to say that all the time, but...love them dearly. But they had dynamics in their relationship. My dad's a very quiet man, my mom is not a very quiet woman, you know, which I leveraged all the time, but in their relationship if there was something amiss, then I was the one that moved in to be the communicator specifically with my mom, because I could see what she was after. And I was willing as the son to move into that place to say, okay, we can talk about this, especially the older that I got, I could really carry on a conversation at a semi adult level. Well, the problem with that is that is I needed to just let that relationship that's their marriage, not my marriage, but I'm moved in to try to smooth that over. And man have I realized in 20 plus years of marriage when I'm in my kitchen operating as if I'm in my parents kitchen, having those conversations and it's not really doing my marriage any good to move in to be codependent a codeplendent. Excuse me codependent compliant. Placater, codeplendent. splendor, It just doesn't do any good. Although it feels like it is the right thing to do. There's a lot of things that fall into that category. But this one in particular, can be very dangerous because we feel like we're doing the right thing. exercising control, keeping everybody at a comfortable temperature and getting along just to get along.
Roane Hunter 17:36
Well, yeah. And you know, kind of the flip side from what you grew up in there was some of that with my mother is crossing boundaries telling me too much about her relationship with step Fokker. Fokker, that's a movie, That's what I said, anyway,
Ben Derrick 17:53
I love that term.
Roane Hunter 17:54
That was our affection.
Ben Derrick 17:55
it's made its way through our community by the way.
Roane Hunter 17:56
It has. That was our affectionate name for him. So there was definitely boundary crossing and some emotional incest. With that, but But mostly what I grew up in was more just neglect in, in that and so those basic needs for security in relationship, feeling safe. feeling cared for all of those things. I didn't get that, like Rhys Bobby, Ricky, Bobby's dad, I didn't get that. And so what that set me up for is just, you know, this stuff plays out in the, you know, you can grow up in very different situations. But for me, it set me up to get in a relationship with somebody that says that they love me, and they care for me. And then we stand up before God and you know, 200 people and make our vows and our commitments. And so now, this person is the designated one to meet all of those emotional needs. And so I worked very hard, trying to be to look good to be good to let her know, let her think, or lead her to believe that I was good. And so I could, you know, in my head, I could do no wrong. And you know, when she would have a complaint, well, you know, what you do with is you get very defensive, right? Because I'm defending this part of me that was neglected. And if somehow I have a flaw, then she's not going to be there. And then there's the abandonment stuff that was there for me, just emotional abandonment. And so I worked really hard in trying to please and appease and control her, manipulate her by, you know, doing it all right. But nobody can do it all right. And again, in every relationship, there's going to be complaints, but my perception of the complaint was a criticism, because I was so insecure, it was it was in my filter, it was it was a criticism of who I am. And, you know, you got to defend that. And so anger and defensiveness and but that's all control and that set compulsive, compulsion to manage it and control it.
Ben Derrick 20:19
So codependency and insecurity often go together?
Roane Hunter 20:22
100%
Ben Derrick 20:24
So now you're calling me insecure?
Roane Hunter 20:26
you are.
Ben Derrick 20:26
I am.
Roane Hunter 20:26
Just for the record, on the record.
Ben Derrick 20:26
I actually am.
Roane Hunter 20:26
You're getting better, though, dude. I'm going to give you some affirmation.
Ben Derrick 20:35
Let's get to the root of it, though, in that so I have to admit, remind me to get back to the word game in just a second. But I have to admit that I'm codependent and insecure. That's a pretty heavy lift for anyone. Oh, yeah. But it is usually one of the first stops on the way to health,
Roane Hunter 20:55
It's awareness, right? I've got to become aware of this stuff if I'm going to ever change it. And certainly just becoming aware of it doesn't change it. You know, well, how do you change it? Well, I've got to begin to practice, right? Like Allen Iverson practice. That's pretty relevant! He's retired. But still, it was a deal, right? I feel I feel I feel so young.
Ben Derrick 21:21
Good.
Roane Hunter 21:22
Yeah. But but I've got to begin to practice well, how do I practice? Because chances are, I'm in a relationship with somebody that has never faced their own, they're unaware of it. And they're just doing what they know to do. Well, I've got to begin to get in relationship with others that understand this stuff that are further down the road, that can help me begin to see it, and be able to talk about it. And it takes a lot of practice to be able to change it because now we're getting into the bone and marrow of our DNA. Because this is typically it's generational. It just, it didn't start with just our parents. It was in it was in the blood of the grandparents and the great grandparents. Yeah. I think there's something that says the you know, the sins, the dysfunction of the fathers, and the mothers will be passed on, it's the dysfunction. And that's what we have in our DNA. And it's like, we're four dimensional creatures. I mean, a lot of times, we can draw the three circles on the board, mind, body, and spirit. I think that's just Greek philosophy if not, theology. But in essence, as humans, we're four dimensional creatures. There's the physical dimension of who we are, right now in the present moment, in our physical bodies, and what's going on around me. And most people live only in that physical dimension. And that's why we will become pleasure seeking creatures, because just physically, I need relief, I need comfort, I need happiness, because I live in America. And that's where we live. And we're very unaware of the other dimensions. And kind of the second dimension, part of who we are is kind've that we're moving into the psychological, which is mind and emotions that are both, and. Psychology is literally mean study of the soul. And the construct of the soul. It is it is the mind it is the body. It's it's a whole construct of kind of what makes us who we are. And that psychological part is the mind and emotions. Well, most people are unaware of even you know what's going on inside of me emotionally, we'll get reactive to things that are happening in the physical presence in that dimension. And then I'm acting out in some way, defensiveness, anger, withdrawing all the stuff that we do that's unhealthy. And then in the mind, you know, so much of this recovery journey, so much of our life journey, is really beginning to examine how we think, because our emotions emanate from our thoughts. So as a man thinketh he is right. It's the emotional side, and the mind and the why we think so many of our thoughts are automatic. And we don't examine those. But part of our journey is to become aware of how I'm thinking, because my thinking will lead me into a victim mindset very quickly. And language, frames our reality. So often, you know, people sitting in my office, you know, well, he always does this and I'm like, oh, no, hang on. He doesn't always do that. But then again, when you start, like really examining the thoughts of how we automatically think these things, boy, that that's where we win this battle. That's where it anything changes the mind and emotions. And then that third dimension is certainly the spiritual dimension. And that's certainly the existential, you know, higher power. We call it God. That's just a reality of life. And most people are unaware of even the spiritual dimension, and how that plays out in our lives and affects the other parts of life. A lot of people go to church, but that has nothing to do with the spiritual dimension of how we're made, and who we are, and what we're designed and created to be connected to a creator. And when we are disconnected from the Creator, well, our lives are chaos. And then the the other dimension is neglected, often in that's our history, right, of who we are, what makes us up our DNA, the generational dysfunction, the epigenetics that have been passed on generationally, and how this stuff is playing out. So if we're going to begin to really change this stuff, I've got to begin to examine, to become self aware, self reflective, and began to understand these different dimensions of who I am. That make me human.
Ben Derrick 26:17
Wow, that's, well put. Congratulations.
Roane Hunter 26:21
Yeah, thank you, I'm not sure I even stole that from somebody out there. Because that-
Ben Derrick 26:26
Was that original?
Roane Hunter 26:27
Yep, just came out.
Ben Derrick 26:28
fact, check.
Roane Hunter 26:29
I hope we did get that recorded. 'Cause I'll forget it.
Ben Derrick 26:32
It's got me thinking in a lot of different directions. And I'm sure listeners are in this place, as well. But the first place I started was when I walk into a room, especially if it's relationships that my parents have. The one of the first things out here is you must be a Derrick. They can see, you know, physically, they can see. Yep. And there's a little bit of that, that makes me proud, like, Yeah, I'm connected. I'm connected to this family. But when my wife says it, that's a completely different scenario. You must be a Derrick, that's the most Derrick thing I've ever heard you say. So I find it very interesting, though. And there's a little bit of Ryan holidays, spinning around here of the obstacle is the way where we are feeling resistance. That's probably where the work is. A lot of people want to talk about their physical discomfort, their ailments, we the Christian circles, call that Wednesday night. That's how that goes. They may scratch the surface of that emotional piece, because the emotions are just pushing out sideways in their life. But when we talk start to talk about the spiritual component, there's people get very uncomfortable because of all the judgment that has happened there, the history that they have with that. And certainly, certainly when you start to push a person to talk about mom and dad, they roll their eyes, and they're like, oh, here we go. I knew this was on its way, you know, I'm surprised you waited this long. That resistance, though, is an indicator, we would say today, it's an indicator of there's a lot of work that needs to occur there. Because you You did not just inherit physical characteristics from your family. You've inherited characteristics on how you operate in relationship going way, way back from people that you've never even met, that have influenced your family. That's a really difficult thing to think about. Because it requires a lot of work to sit with and be comfortable with the fact that you may be operating from family default. And some of this chaos and dysfunction is on you.
Roane Hunter 28:36
Amen. Well, and you know, we always say man did this work around certain family systems is not about blaming it's just simply about naming, right? I'm not blaming, but I'm naming what occurred, right? The facts of what I grew up in. And then what was the impact on me relationally and emotionally. And again, that's moving into these dimensions, that we have to begin to reconcile we have to begin to unpack in order to change otherwise, we're just going to keep operating like we do. We're not going to change anything.
Ben Derrick 29:16
You want to know the dumbest thing I've ever done as a dad?
Roane Hunter 29:19
Gosh, would like we could do a whole episode. I've got oh yeah, I can top you.
Ben Derrick 29:25
Probably Probably this one is pretty bad though.
Roane Hunter 29:27
Well, I'll get we'll get Roe or Josh to come in and do that episode. They would just tell you.
Ben Derrick 29:33
I've too terrified to invite my son's into this podcast. Well, yeah. One believes he is. I was parenting for a significant portion of my son's lives. I was parenting trying to meet my needs. Meeting the needs that I had at their age. And I was moving in I was doing all the things that my dad didn't do. You know, what did you need that you didn't get, I identified that and then you know still stuck in codependence, I didn't go to my dad with those things that that would be a terrible idea. I just decided I was going to correct that. So I started parenting from that place really codependent on my parents, my family of origin. I start pointing that at my sons, and I'm parenting in a way with urgency over my own needs, and it wasn't even their need. And it really disrupted our relationship, because it just didn't make any sense to them. Then I became very resentful. Like, you know what, this wasn't done for me. And I'm trying to do it for you. It led to all sorts of family conversations. If I had just stopped to think about why am I doing this? Why is this so important to me? Then I could have addressed the actual origin of codependence instead of passing it right down. Yeah, and then the law really looking at my son saying what what I'd like for you to be is dependent upon me to meet this need for you that you don't even have, you know, boy, that just that cycle is what do you call it? The crazy dance?
Roane Hunter 31:02
Oh yeah, a lot of words we can put around that. No doubt.
Ben Derrick 31:07
Yeah, but if we're being avoidant of moving in and thinking about codependence, it is a guarantee that you're gonna pass on a tremendous amount of dysfunction, and not just between husband and wife. It's bigger than that. It's with your children, it's with your boss, it's with your friends. 100%, you don't know who you are, and you can't you can't boundary as an individual and enter into relationships with healthy agreements, pretty much guaranteed, it's going to be chaos.
Roane Hunter 31:35
Oh, yeah. And I think, you know, like, you talked about your sons, and certainly, you know, for me with mine, it was, boy, all the things that I didn't get, you're growing up, and, you know, I'm, I'm trying to make sure they get it. And there's, again, a compulsion almost around that. Because in my head, you know, I've gotta impart all this to them. And so that they'll be okay. Well, the reality of it is they were okay. Because they had a mom and a dad that actually loved them and cared for him and would actually talk to him about anything. But but that other side of like, somehow I've got to every moment is a teaching moment, and all those things. I wish, I wish I could go back and change a lot of that, for sure. But I think that's kind of a natural tendency that you know, what we did not get, we're going to work too hard, overly hard unnecessarily, trying to impart this stuff that they're really okay. When I say with parents all the time. I had a family session not long ago, and the parents and there's a lot of conflict in their relationship. But they brought their 18 year old daughter and like, I'm sitting there listening to the 18 year old, like, wow, I mean, she is she's sharp, and she gets it and she's gonna be okay. But mom and dad are trying to control her based on their past. And there's the rub. And this girl's like, scholarships and perfect grades. Yeah, she's gonna be okay, I think you can back off. But that's that fear, based on what they experienced. And they're just projecting it onto her.
Ben Derrick 33:24
This does give me a lot of hope, as we talk about the younger generations, me being in my mid 40s. There's, you know, generations after me now that are emerging into adulthood. And I feel very encouraged as I sit with that generation because they don't have as much resistance to growth as, as the media labels them, for sure. Now, there's a lot of crazy going on in our world today. But there's a huge part of that population that understands self awareness that understands health, that understands getting outside of their own mind in relationships, to get feedback on what's going on in their stories. So, I do find often I'm like, Hey, we're talking a lot about your kids, but they're good.
Roane Hunter 34:05
They're alot better than you think they are.
Ben Derrick 34:06
Sometimes in spite of your efforts, they've done a good job, no doubt. So we say here often that that nature hates a vacuum so we would not want to record an episode just telling people Hey, stop it. You got to stop being codependent you know? So the language that you use is replacing codependence with interdependence. Let's talk a little bit about interdependence and what that looks like and how freeing that could probably be for someone who's suffered under the weight of codependence?
Roane Hunter 34:37
Well, i think I'll just start out that that part of the conversation, you know, I often tell couples, there's no such thing as marriage counseling, right? I mean that, how do you counsel a marriage? You're actually counseling two individuals. And so first off, I've got to begin to do my own work individually. And if you got two people that are you know, willing to engage in their process and do their own work. Well, now you got a chance. Because one of the things that, you know, the goal is, moving away from trying to control this other person. And the way that they talked to me and what he said what she said, You know, one of my favorite things in counseling is when the husband or the wife, they start impersonating the other, in the argument, you've been there, right? Yeah. Well, she said, and he did, he does like this. And like his wife's talk. I'm like, dude, does she really talk to you like that?
Ben Derrick 35:37
No. The male, part of that is usually terrible. But I'll tell you, the wives are usually spot on.
Roane Hunter 35:43
No doubt. Yeah, always. But it's just comical. But But what we're trying to do is just control this other person. Now, maybe they're doing something that's harmful, or things that don't that are bad for sure. What you've got to do individually is you've got to become well boundaried. And it's like, I love you, I will not tolerate this behavior. Right. If you don't do something about this, I'm done. I mean, that's a boundary. But And that, to me, is the whole key of dealing with this codependency. I've got to see it. I've got to understand it. I've got to see how that plays out. But then my work is becoming well boundaried. I'm going to reroute rewrite Henry clouds book boundaries. And I'm gonna be Bubba cloud, his Mississippi cousin. Because you know, he's from Mississippi. Yeah, he's from Mississippi.
I'm not sure that's a fact. He really puts out there.
No, he talks about a little bit. But yeah, he so I'm going to be Bubba cloud, in my book on boundaries, there's gonna be one page in it is as simple as this. You know, it's what I will accept and what I will not accept. It's what I will do and what I will not do. And when you start unpacking each one of those things, what you're getting into is your value system. You're getting into your integrity as a man or a woman. It's like, I will not accept being talked to that way. I will not accept being cussed. I will not accept being shamed. I will not accept being berated. This conversation is over. When you're ready to talk like a regular person. I'm all in. But when this stuff starts happening, no, I'm not gonna subject subject myself to that. Because I am worthy of love and respect, right? Because Jesus tells me who I am I, and nobody's gonna talk to me that way, my wife or you know, Joe blow down the street. Not gonna happen.
Ben Derrick 37:50
It goes both ways. Right? It means you have to participate in that agreement yourself. Yep. Just as a mode of accountability here. You can't say "I won't accept that" from the other person, and then deliver it. Yeah. Yeah, to be able to join with or show up to the show up place, which is a healthy place. Yeah, you have to commit to that. And that. And sometimes that can be very difficult for a lot of us who have been showing up in an unhealthy way, for a very long time. Oh, yeah. I love that idea of saying, and this has infected a lot of my relationships, which has been a really freeing thing for me in the past five years. I'm just not going to join you there. I know you want me to join you there. But I'm not going to join you there. And then what as a codependent, the thing that I have to say literally out loud is, I don't like the man that I am when I show up that way. Absolutely. There's a lot of regret, a lot of shame and a lot of damage that occurs. If I join you right there. Some heads are going to roll because I'm actually better at unhealthy than you are.
Roane Hunter 38:52
And what you're doing is you are setting a boundary for you. You're not saying you're not going to do this. You're just saying, Hey, I know who I am. When this happens, and I don't like it. I'm not going to participate. And you're not blaming, you're saying no, it's not good for me. And that's okay. Right. Yeah. And then when you're ready, like I'm all in, and you know, the trick is now I can't go pout and so because I got called a name. I can see that for what it is that's just coming out of her hurt her pain, her frustration. And rather than you know, invoking my man, superpower of pouting and sulking over in the corner, actually am available when she wants to do it different.
Ben Derrick 39:39
Yeah, yeah, it's awesome to be able to say to the important relationships in our lives. I won't join you there, but I can join you here. Amen. I'm right over here and I'm comfortable there. And I know my left and my rights, I know my boundaries. I know my agreements with myself over here. I'm going to be a great man to be in relationship with over there as a friend, as a husband, as a father, I'm not going to be a great man, if I join you over here.
Roane Hunter 40:05
Oh, yeah. And you know, when, again, when betrayal has occurred, you know, whether it's porn, infidelity, whatever form that has taken, there is going to be a lot of pain, right? And that's part of the betrayal, trauma. And sometimes, because, you know, if I've been the actor-outer and the betrayer, in some ways, I have to sit in that pain. And sometimes that pain comes in form of some, you know, nuclear tipped, flaming arrows, right. But I've got to see that for what it is. But so often, because especially early in recovery, I am insecure. All right, that's why I was acting out. That's a lot of the reasons, you know, all the stuff. I don't have the emotional foundation to be able to sit in that and not get reactive. But that's where, you know, getting in counseling, getting in a healthy men's group beginning to have that support system. Hearing other guys look at me in the eye, you know, you're good, man, I love you. I'm with you. That's, Jesus was going on will now get the emotional strength and support over here to be able to sit in the pain and the hurt, that is going to be present. And we have to work with that we got to comfort that hurt for some period of time, before we can even begin to get into the relational dynamics. Because if you just jump into the relational dynamics, it's like, well, you It's my wife's fault. I did this stuff because she was you know, somethings up. It's like, nope, nope, what you did is on you, that's on me. I did it. I was wrong. I've got to go deal with that. That's my job. That's my work. And then I want to help her heal. And that takes a lot a lot of time. For sure.
Ben Derrick 42:01
You know, one of the most powerful phrases I've heard in this past year is outside of the, out from the SF community that I work with these the Green Beret guys, they'll look at each other and say the beatings will continue until morale improves. That's exactly how it feels a codependent like the beatings are going to continue until I figure out. I'm going to be okay. I may be uncomfortable, but I'm not going to die. My life isn't in danger here. And really, my marriage isn't in danger. But I'm treating it with that sense of urgency because I've just got to control it. Everything's got to be okay by bedtime.
Roane Hunter 42:39
Yeah,
Ben Derrick 42:40
let me I just have to before we wrap this up. That whole thing about not letting the sun go down.
Roane Hunter 42:46
Oh, man, we could do it. We need to do an episode on that. That is, that has caused, we used to stay up till 4am Because you know what? Watching the sun come up. Because we didn't go to bed angry. Well, now the sun's up. I can still be angry.
Ben Derrick 43:01
I mean, it's so that off the page where like, you must be emotionally healthy. Take that whole journey inside of 24 hours you know even less than that. Because you didn't wake up with the sun. Oh, my goodness. So yeah, this I think this is very pretty.
Roane Hunter 43:15
love it when when we take a one verse and we make it as my favorite. We might make some principle or dogma or this is this is what Jesus was saying.
Ben Derrick 43:25
My absolute favorite.
Roane Hunter 43:26
Oh, gosh, it's like the you know, if you look at a woman with lust in your heart, you've committed adultery. Okay, well, in context, who is Jesus talking to? Right? He was talking to the hard headed hard hearted, stubborn, could use a lot of words, but he was talking to the religious types. And he's using hyperbole to make a point, which I relate to, because I do that often when I'm speaking. Yeah, it's provocative. Yes. And what he's saying is you're no better, but they were self righteous and hypocritical. But man the shame that that teaching produces is I believe is one of the biggest things in Christiandom as far as keeping me in bound up in shame around this.
Ben Derrick 44:16
No doubt about it. Oh, it's terrible. Would you be okay doing a whole episode on the Bible? Dude that let's do let's do Yeah, for now. We need wrap the conversation on codependence and just encouraging I think the codependent who's out there. Hey, it can change you can get better. The road is going to be a little bit rocky in the beginning. But you would encourage the codependent Hey, get to work. It's going to be worth it.
Roane Hunter 44:39
Well, yeah, absolutely. And the thing of it is, tell partners this all the time. If he's going to go do something. He's going to do it. There's, you could lock him in a closet. It wouldn't matter. He's gonna find a way. So you can like maybe let Let them go and trust God because what man covers God uncovers, and if something is done, God's going to reveal it. He already has and he'll do it again. So it's just the idea of like he's got to work his recovery. He's got to work on his side of the street, and the partner has to begin to work on their side of the street. But boy that codependent part of his on both sides keeps us locked in to the crazy dance.
Ben Derrick 45:31
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