In this episode, we dive into a remarkable book that defies easy categorization. On the surface, it appears to be a story of a marriage that fell apart due to infidelity and a host of other challenges. Harrison Scott Key takes us on a rollercoaster ride through the intricate and often bizarre journey of trying to salvage a relationship that seemed beyond repair. But there's a twist. The book is almost structured like a true crime novel, beginning with a dead body - the author's marriage. The Harrison's wife drops a bombshell, revealing her love for a neighbor who had been a part of their lives for years. What follows is a gripping exploration of not just the demise of the marriage but also the search to unearth the culprit and determine if the relationship can be resurrected. Beyond the humor, this book is a tapestry of emotions. It delves deep into sadness and grief, not only from the author's perspective but also from his wife's. However, at its core, this story is about hope. It's about the role of community, the impact of friends and church, and the author's wrestling with his faith. It's a religious book that explores various facets of life, including marriage, God, family, and hope, making it an intricate and multifaceted journey that's sure to captivate and resonate with readers. So join us as we unpack this one-of-a-kind story that is both heart-wrenching and heartwarming, a story of love, loss, and the enduring power of hope.
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Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God and Chaos podcast, conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in.
Roane, it's been a day in the studio.
Roane Hunter 0:31
Once again, seems like we've been here for a week.
Ben Derrick 0:34
The content has been great, technology has not been our friend today. But here we are.
Roane Hunter 0:40
Gosh, it seems like I don't know. I think the devil lives in IT equipment.
Ben Derrick 0:45
We are very hesitant podcast. Yeah, give him credit for too many things. But today is definitely felt that way.
Roane Hunter 0:51
He woke up, flew here from Las Vegas because it's where he lives. And unbelievable.
Ben Derrick 0:58
level of problems that we have usually matches the quality of the content. So this episode, we're about to roll out for our listeners, maybe one of the best we've done so far strictly because the guest, this guy has a way of talking about life problems. That's very unique.
Roane Hunter 1:14
Man, it is this, I had been looking forward to this because I knew it was gonna be just an incredible episode. And it is Harrison Scott Key, author. He is a native of Mississippi. And he is he is a professor at Savannah College of Art and Design in his real job. But he's written several books working on another one. And the book that certainly caught our attention is "How To Stay Married: The Most Insane Love Story You'll Ever Hear" And it is the story of his marriage and his wife's affair. And it's one of those books, I don't think I knew what the somebody just said, Hey, you got to listen, this, you'll like it. And Eva and I both got into the book, we were driving about five hours and, we got to our friends, got to their house, and we wanted to keep going because we were so engrossed in the book. And the great thing about the book is, and I think as I've talked about this on the podcast, is that it is not clinical, he doesn't use any of the clinical terms. But you can tell that he, they've done their work, and it is genuine, it is real. It is vulnerable. And it is funny as hell,
Ben Derrick 2:48
that's the thing is approach to these really tragic things going on in his life. He uses humor, not only to cope, but also to talk about and I think that's what's making this book just explode. Because sometimes the only thing you can do is laugh, you know?
Roane Hunter 3:05
Well, we mentioned that, you know, even you know, for Eva and I,one of the things that was, I think attracted both of us to each other is the sense of humor. I think that's a beautiful thing in every... any couple ship. If you don't have that, by the way, you may have to go to, I don't know, comedy club or so you need to, you need to kind of develop that part of your relationship. And it, you know, these things, in the face of this level of crisis, sometimes you just gotta laugh at yourself, each other and just the whole situation. And it is an important part of recovery, as well.
Ben Derrick 3:52
Well, we can't wait for our listeners to get to this content. Before you do though, if you are enjoying these episodes, getting something out of them, we're just going to ask politely because that's the type of men that we are. We're going to ask you to get on whatever you're using to consume these podcasts and leave us a review we have found that people are finding us for the first time each and every day. And these written reviews really help themm know what the podcast is about. So typed out a few sentences if you will just for us as a favor to us, but mostly as a favor to people who are looking to get a sense of hope. And we are finding out that hope is spreading through this podcast all across the world. So if you'll do that for us, we'd be highly appreciative. So without any further delay, here's our episode with Harrison Scott Key.
Roane Hunter 4:37
So welcome back to the Sex, God and Chaos podcast this morning. We have just a special guest. But looking forward to having Harrison Scott Key on the podcast. My wife and I listened to the book actually a couple of months ago and We were driving to some friend's house and it was about a five hour drive. And we wanted to keep going because we were riveted by the book and Harrison, this, your story, And the way you laid that out in the book was just, man, it was we both it was genuine. It was real, it was authentic, and vulnerable. And the greatest part is it was hilarious.
Harrison Scott Key 5:32
Thank you.
Roane Hunter 5:33
With a very, very sensitive subject. And my wife and I, in our counseling practice, we work with infidelity and betrayal. Just every day. And so when I when we listen to the book, I said, like, I gotta get him on the getting on our podcast and, and then certainly the Mississippi connection, that that just made it a slam dunk. So man, appreciate you joining us. And just if you if you would just kind of give us the cliff notes of your of your story and the how to stay married the most insane love story that you'll ever hear?
Harrison Scott Key 6:19
Well, it's, it's a lot of different things on the surface, it's a book about marriage falling apart, and through infidelity and other things. And sort of what it was like to have, what it was like to save that marriage or what that process was like, although, and that's sort of how you might describe it if you had 30 seconds but really the book is a is it's almost structured like a true crime novel. It starts like all great murder mysteries, it starts with a with a dead body. And the dead body at the beginning of this book is my marriage when my wife tells me that she is in love with a guy who used to be our neighbor. And I immediately try to you know, you know, Sherlock Holmes this thing and try to figure out like, not just reckoning with the fact of this dead marriage, but who killed it? And is it really dead? And if it's not, how can we get this thing back? And is it worth getting back? And so I go through so the whole book is sort of structured like that. It's like a true crime romance horror comedy. Where I in the comedy comes from my absolute bewilderment at this situation, and finding out that I mean, it was comical from the beginning, obviously not, I mean, incredibly tragic, too. But when, when you find out that your wife has been in love with your neighbor for years, this guy that you've, you know, cooked chicken wings with, and, you know, you'd let him borrow your Weedeater and he's borrowed your chainsaw. And, you know, I mean, it's just it, like, blew my mind. And I couldn't help but laugh, I laughed, as soon as she told me not to laugh of like, of derision, or of high comedy, but a laugh of absolute shock and surprise. And so there's a lot of comedy in this book. And the only reason that is, is because I'm, I'm just a, I'm a funny person. And what I mean by that is, um, I that's just how I look at the world. You know, I've given about five eulogies in my life. And those are funny, just because I believe that that the world is so broken. And so incongruous, and that's what that's the heart of comedy is brokenness and incongruity the things that don't fit that don't match. And so yeah, it's funny, it's really sad and tragic. And there's a lot of sadness in the book, a lot of my grief in the book, a lot of my wife's grief in the book, but ultimately, it's a story of hope. It's a story of community, my friends, our church played huge role in the story. My wrestling with God, it's a religious book. It's sort of all over the place, man. It's a book about marriage. It's a book about God. It's a book about family. It's, it's a book about hope it's all over the place.
Roane Hunter 9:33
Yeah, I certainly man just 100% agree. And, you know, one of the things that, you know, my wife and I went through our own tragedy in our marriage, and we divorced and remarried. But one of the things that we talk about is the kind of the sense of humor and in some ways, kind of being able to laugh at Some of the stuff because you just can't make sense out of nonsense. And so that sense of humor was one of the things that that just was attractive in the beginning and then certainly even brought us back together in the midst of a lot of pain. And, and I think, you know, in working with couples, not that it's funny, but in some ways you just kind of have to laugh at this stuff because otherwise you just want to crawl under a rock and die. So I just one of the excerpts that I just I just want to read this for our listeners, because you know, the Day of Discovery, whatever it is, in this betrayal, drama that happens. Man, you just did a great job of kind of putting it your your feelings on paper.And so just so our listeners can get a sense of what it was like, on D Day. "When you hear the most shocking news of your life, what do you do? Do you weep, laugh, go for a drive, a run a gun? What I did was stare across the room at a beach ball, a toy left on the floor ever so slightly deflated with a pinprick hole never to be repaired. It's days of play were over. So we're hours. I stood and took the deflated beach ball in my hands, I think better on my feet with something to hold. That reality. Now felt as weird and useless as this ball filled with expended breath so easily destroyed. She did not look like my wife anymore. She spoke like an indifferent alien droid, who did not necessarily wish to destroy life on Earth, but had been programmed to do so. I needed facts which I extracted from Lauren, with a pair of reductionist tongs during that first hateful night of this new tribulation. I wanted every plot point, every line of dialogue. It was time for revision, the story I had been telling myself about my life was bogus. The wise and tender hearted mother, the fiercely funny wife. All of it was an elaborate fairy tale. It's weird to stare at a woman you've been staring at for years and see something new, hidden there all along, waiting for you to see it, if you would only look, but the woman in front of me had few answers to give. I wanted to believe her. But I did not believe her. I wanted to know everything. And yet with all these facts in my hands, I knew nothing. If this ever happens to you, be prepared not to know things. You will never feel as ignorant as you do after you know. Questions only lead to more questions. The answers will never satisfy though you need them desperately. You need answers like a beach ball needs air." And just working in this arena for many years. And when we listen to it on Audible and just boy, you captured that day of discovery, that moment of discovery as well as anything I've ever heard. Even today as you kind of hear that, think about that. Where are you with just what we would call betrayal trauma. And where does that take you?
Harrison Scott Key 13:41
Well, first of all, thanks for reading that. It's so good. I'm always shocked by how good something that I've worked on turns up. And I know that feels like bragging. And I guess it is.
Roane Hunter 13:53
I get it.
Harrison Scott Key 13:54
But now I'm like, oh, that's that's not bad. I'm working. I'm actually working on a new book right now. And it's not going well at all, as most as writing almost always doesn't go well. And so I have forgotten that I can I can write a sentence. And so hearing you read that I'm like, okay, whoever wrote that he knew what he was doing man thats good.
Roane Hunter 14:18
That guy knows how to write.
Harrison Scott Key 14:19
I would love to be him again one day. Anyway, thanks. So yeah, thanks for reading that. You know, the one of the questions I get a lot is, is how I could or why I would write something like this so soon after the events of the story. Now what you read that scene happened in 2017, so over just over six years ago, which is plenty of time to process something. There are other themes in the book that happened only three years ago. And the most recent scenes of the book, yeah, we're about two or three years ago. And one reason for that, and I'm going to answer your question, but one reason for that is I really wanted to give the book the feel of a sort of like it, like, in the present sort of Battlefield report of this just happened. I mean, you know, when there's a when they're, you know, right now there's fighting in Israel and Palestine. And there's fighting all over the world there. But there's fighting there, everybody's talking about it. And there are reporters on the ground, and they're, you know, they they are reporting live, what's happening, and nobody saying, Why are you reporting about this right now? Why don't you wait, you know, five or 10 years, so you have better perspective, nobody says that to them. Because you get a different reaction when it's right there happening in the moment, you can analyze and, and process later, but people do want to see what's happening. That was, that was the exact same thought I had with this book. I'm like, you know, I could wait five or 10 years to write this story. And it would be a different story, a slightly different story, it actually probably probably be funnier. Because, you know, time plus tragedy equals comedy. But I wanted to write it very, very, I felt compelled to write it almost as it was happening, because I wanted to capture the experience of what it felt like to be me in that moment, because it was so awful. And, and so the act of writing is an act of communion with other people, other minds. And that was, and so in some way, the writing was a way to hold on to reality and be like, I'm not alone in this, I, if I can tell this story to somebody else. That means I'm not alone, and I'm not dying, and I'm not going to lose my mind. And so you ask about, you know, how's the betrayal, trauma, the PTSD going? And, you know, it's, it's going, it's, it's, I have, as I said, about, I think, the last chapter of the book, you have good days and bad days. And you have days where, you know, I had a day, the other day where we were all home, our three girls, Lauren was home, I was home from work. I was cooking, she was doing the dishes, our girls were like doing their homework. And they were like in the kitchen talking. And it was this just beautiful moment. And just beautiful. Not a complaint in the world. You feel like sort of eternity imposing itself into the present a moment like that. And I remember thinking, This is it. This is why we stayed married, for this moment, right here, this beautiful moment of a family just working and working together, and making dinner and laughing and talking. And this is it. And that's those are the good days. And I told Lauren, that that day, I was like this is it. I mean, I didn't want you know, it's hard. You don't want to constantly bring up the the infidelity and the separation and all the trauma all the time, you can't do that, that can be very punishing to your partner. And but I did say I was like, This is it. I was like, this is such a great day, just and nothing special is happening today. But everything special is happening today. That's a good day. A bad day is when the memory of what happened. Just rushes back, like, like a tsunami that you're not expecting, and it comes on you in the strangest moments. And, and I'm sure this happens for Lauren, and similar and different ways. But you know, I'll have a thought like, what if she still loves this guy? or, I'll have a thought... And that's a present thought, or I'll have a thought of just remembering some time when she said she was running errands and she was with this other guy. And I'll feel so small for being so ignorant and stupid. Even now, I will still remember what it felt like then and it feels like a very present feeling. And those are bad days. And the bad days as you sort of get farther away or further away from the incidence of from the dark season. Those bad days should hopefully get fewer and fewer. And for me for us. Therapy, we don't go to therapy as much as we used to we you know, we were there like once a week for a while because you're in crisis mode. You're in the ICU. But even now, therapy just helps with sort of like when you when the bad thoughts come in. You can't ignore them. But you also can't water them and nourish them and let them grow and grow and grow. And so it's a, it's a very difficult line to walk where you don't want to wallow in the past, but you also don't want to completely ignore it. Like it didn't happen. You know, we talk a lot and in American Christianity about forgiving and forgetting. And, you know, for me, it's like, Well, forgive Yes. Forget, I'm not sure. It's more for me, it's more of, to forgive, to forgive. And remember, and the remember is the people who went through that the Pete, the two people, we were, who precipitated my wife's affair, and who and who, the Harrison who, who helped my wife have an affair, by the way, I was checked out so much. My very low emotional intelligence, which I think is just I don't know, hereditary. You know, like, those were different people. Now, they have the same social security numbers and names. And fingerprint says, my wife and I, but they were different people. And that's what I have to tell myself. It's like, well, the woman who did that, and the man who helped make it possible, those were different people. And I had shared a lot in common with with that guy. But he's a different man. And I'm, and I'm a different man now. And that helps on the bad days, just remembering that they are fewer and farther between us than they used to be.
Roane Hunter 21:41
Man, great, a great word. And it, I think it is, you know, the idea of it, maybe it's maybe it's forgiveness and acceptance, that this happened, and just the reality of pain. And then being able to talk about it as needed in the future, because it's one of the things we see. So often couples go through this, and then they decided to stay together, but then they just kind of sweep it under the rug, never to be talked about again. And you know what, that what happens, it just really kind of truncates kind of puts a governor on the on the level of intimacy, the connection that the couples want, that's what we all signed up for from the beginning. And then couples go through this and they, they'll either just kind of go into silent mode about it, or they wind up, you know, taking the easy way out and just cut bait and then get divorced, and then miss out on what you just described the same, you know, in the kitchen with daughters and the man my wife and I 30 years out and, you know, by no means it's been a, it hasn't been a perfect marriage, since that happened. And I'm sure you would agree with that. You know, marriage is in some ways, it's like a cat and a dog in a dryer. That's just the normal stuff of marriage. But, you know, we both would say that man after 30 years, and now two grandbabies. And, you know, everything that we went through has been worth it because of, you know, what we've learned about ourselves and about each other and, and certainly about God, that that whole, that whole piece is like, man, we wouldn't trade it. Right. And I kind of hear you saying the same thing.
Harrison Scott Key 23:45
Yeah, I, I often will think, you know, like, man, what if, what if we hadn't stayed married? You know, and I in a way you know, when when my wife's first affair happened and that and that happened in the passage that you were reading that's near the beginning of the book. When that happened, our reaction to that was definitely to sort of move on very quickly not deal with it. Like okay, we're married we're gonna stay married. You broke up with the guy I'll I'll do more dishes, everything will be fine. But it was definitely swept under the rug very quickly. And like smile grin and bear it, be good Christians move on quickly. And that didn't work at all. And, you know, common sense would tell you like, yeah, that doesn't work but to, to but in reality that's it's so safe and comfortable to sweep it under the rug because you have, you have a lot of gross, disgusting things under that rug that nobody wants to look at and Mmm. And so, in a way writing the book was putting all of my cards on the table and being like, all right, Lauren, what if? What if we do the very opposite of what didn't work? What didn't work was smiling, grinning, bearing and moving on and not talking about it except with like three people and going to therapy very little. And just, like just bootstrapping this marriage, what if we did the opposite. And we made it incapable of not talking about because of a book, if we write this book, it will not allow us not to talk about it. And that was scary. And of course, the book came out in June, and we have not been able not to talk about it, obviously, when we were working on the book together. And you know, she was as much an editor as my editor, she read through drafts and obviously contributed her own amazing chapter in the book, you know, we were dealing with it then. But once it really comes out, and anybody can review it on Goodreads, or Amazon, or audible or any, you know, the Washington Post, The Wall Street Journal Christianity today, like it's everywhere. And we're getting DMS, from people who think I'm a therapist, and just the most insane messages man, like, some are some, you know, I'd say 80% are really sweet. And people say, sort of what you just said, you know, my wife and I experienced something similar, and my husband and I experienced something similar, thank you for getting the story out there, or you've made me appreciate my marriage more, you've made me more, try to be more aware of what's going on whatever, just, you know, these are pretty typical, encouraging stuff. But 20% of the messages are from people who are absolutely insane. And are usually in the middle of something, they will send me their phone number. And they'll like, please call me so we can talk. And I'm like, I don't know, you, you live in Canada, I don't know, you, man. Or they'll tell me like, they'll make the most horrifying confessions. And I won't even go into them of things that they did that just happened the day before. Like they caught their spouse doing something really, really awful. And what how do you react to that on social media? Do you give them like the thumbs up emoji, like, A Okay, or like, you give them the prayer hands. And when you're getting like 10 or 15 of these every day, and I have a full time job at a university and three kids and like, I don't even have the emotional space to talk about it. And, and so I you know, come up with some pretty standard replies, like, you need to talk to somebody that you know, and trust right now. And maybe, hopefully you have friends. And, and then you're going to need to find a therapist, and that's going to be a lot of work to find a good one and get recommendations, and then you get to find a good one, it's gonna you might wait six weeks before you get an appointment, as you know. And so I'm like, you need, you need immediate intervention right now. And then you also need to get a therapist, like, you know, give people all those insights. But all that to say we are we have not been able not to talk about it. And that has helped. For example, doing this interview with you right now means that I also don't, that I'm able to talk about it, but I'm also not compelling my wife to relive the trauma of those moments every day, right? Like, I don't want that's punishment to her. I don't want to do that. When things get bad it was it was I was in a really low place. This summer, just kind of vaguely depressed I'd come off this book tour which is you know, a great high you're seeing all these people and you're all people are reviewing the book and saying mostly good things about it. I was just I came back home and I kind of crashed and as you might after like, you know, a giant concert tour or something. And I was struggling with my new writing project and just kind of generally in a funk and wouldn't go away. And I remember one night in bed just telling Lauren being like, our Did you you know, like, Are you glad you stayed married? Like because I'm putting you through a lot of hell right now. And kind of putting myself through hell. And the idea of dating somebody who's never hurt me like that's an interesting idea. Like that's why dating is so tempting or cheating is so tempting because this person that you're cheating with. They have never made a budget with you. They have never argued with you about what mayonnaise is best and And so it's so tempting to let you know the grass is greener, it's like, and I always have to remind myself I'm like, like, I remember when I will when I told Lauren now it's like, Are you glad you married me? I mean, I'm sure every now and then you think like, what if I ended up with Chad? That's the guy's name for listeners. And I think what is my head? What if we hadn't gotten back together and she'd stayed off in the carriage house and I stayed here. And now I was dating some like, really nice person who like, likes the same kind of mayonnaise that I like, or whatever. So I do think about those parallel universes, not in a if you think about him too much, then you start to sort of lose yourself and things can get bad, but it is interesting to think about what could have happened. And it's those moments in the kitchen with the family that I'm like, This is it, man. Some people live their whole lives without this. They live their whole lives without this love and togetherness. And this this fun and beauty. And this is what we fought for. And it's it's good to have those days.
Roane Hunter 31:05
To think about your book, it's it was it was a wonderful surprise. I just, you know, a friend said you need to read this book, listen to this book. This guy's from Mississippi, and okay, and but did not know, you know, that the book was about, certainly your marriage and the affair. And the infidelity. And and I think I get it, I think that's like our book, you know, was, that's for people where all hell's broken, loose. And you know, we're clinicians, therapists, whatever. But we also have the experience. But it's, it's different, because people are finding our book, you know, they're looking for it purposefully. Where's yours? It's one thing that we love, is that it was a surprise in a way. And the one of the things we loved about it is that you didn't use any of the psychobabble clinical terms. But it's also obvious that you have done your work and are continuing to do your work, as you even said earlier, and it's apparent that Lauren has as well. And both of you guys are committed to just, you know, ongoing, you know, sitting on the couch as necessary. As are my wife and I, you know, we, we need, we need check ins and checkups. And that's just part of the part of the deal. And so I think that was that's one of the beauties of your book is just, you know, kind of not knowing on the front end, oh, it's a book about marriage. But man there it's so much more than that. Because of the, the the reality and the truth, and then the fact that you guys are have done a lot of work, obviously patching this thing. back together.
Harrison Scott Key 33:19
Well, thank you. Yeah, it's, I like what you said about the therapy being like a check in, you know, a lot of people are so afraid of therapy. Like they, they look at therapy, like, you would look at an ER, like, why would you go to the ER, if nothing's wrong, are maybe because you're not sure, you know, going in, it's weird, but I try to help people see that it's more like dentistry, going to the dentist, you know, people didn't go to the dentist for a long, long time. And, and across human civilization, it's relatively recently, you know, if you, if you time traveled back to you know, 1542 And you said, hey, everybody really think you should go to the dentist, you know, to them, like the nobody even knew who had what a dentist was, if you went there, they were gonna be you know, start pulling things out of your skull with pliers. Whereas now, you know, you go to the dentist, because teeth last a lot longer than they used to, because people live a lot longer than they used to. Well, marriages last a lot longer than they used to, because people live a lot longer. And, and so you go to the dentist because they need to clean your teeth about every six months, and something goes wrong. You're already there. And they can check it out and be like, we got to fix this thing here. And it's so good, great when you go to the dentist and they clean your teeth and they're like, Hey, man, everything looks good. You're like that is awesome. That's what going to therapy should be like you go most people obviously first go when something really bad is going on either personally, or in their marriage, with them and their spouse. But what it's good for for us now is as a check in, I'm like, Alright, like every four weeks, every six weeks, we'll go see him, sometimes my wife at our last appointment, like when I was on tour, he does also do zoom appointments. But when I was on tour for the book, my wife went without me. And then she was she had a work meeting, and she couldn't get out of it. So I went without her. And again, still a great check in and I came home and she goes, What did you talk about? And I was like, No, she wasn't prying, she would just like, you know, kind of prying a little bit, you could choose just like how did it go, because he's our therapist, not my therapist. And I was like, Well, we talked about this and this and this, and it precipitated a great conversation. And, and that's what's so great about it is like, I've been going through some stuff with my mom, she's aging, and we're taking care of her. She doesn't live with us. But she lives like five minutes away and, and going through a lot of like, just typical sort of children caring for their parents type stuff. And it's been very sudden, and I wasn't expecting, when I when we set up this last appointment, I wasn't thinking about that. And nothing had happened. But as soon as I walked in, he's like, Well, how's it going, and just move all this stuff about my mom came out, but I wasn't even expecting to come out. And he is also taking care of his mother who's even older than my mother. And he just like, had all this great advice and insight. And it was almost like, we were just talking as friends about our parents. And it was so healthy. And I ended up saying some really nice stuff about my wife, my wife has been so this is starting to sound like therapy too. I'm sorry.
Roane Hunter 36:49
i'm used to it.
Harrison Scott Key 36:50
Okay, well, she, my wife was has been so incredibly helpful with my mom and caring for my mom, and making sure she's cared for. And so I just, that all started coming out. And I realized as we were talking how grateful I was for my wife, and how, how sort of with it and sort of so so in control in in situations that could get very desperate very quickly. And how I always admired that about her. In fact, that was one of the things that attracted me to her when we started dating. And she just, she had like six jobs, she was just so in control. And she's and I was an artist, you know, just flailing about. And I so admired that and, and so as I'm talking to my therapist, completely unplanned, easily could have skipped this appointment, because like nothing terrible is going on right now in my marriage, whatever. As I'm talking to him, I'm realizing Wait, what I saw, you know, you think about like, oh, when you got married, you're such different people now, you've outgrown each other, you no longer love, I mean, if you tell yourself, you're just different people now you grew apart, like that phrase has killed so many marriages that we that we grew apart. So I'm thinking about how helpful My wife has been in with a situation with my sweet mom. And then I was like, you know, that was the woman I saw in her like 23 years ago. And to see it now, almost was like a prophecy come true of how how, how much better my life is because she's in it. And so just saying that to my therapist, made me so much more grateful than I would have been if I hadn't gone to therapy and talked about it. So I came home and I was like, thank you. I just thanked Lauren for being so awesome. And that's why that's why therapy is great. It's not because you want to cry about your dad hitting you when you were 15 which you do that too. But it's about expressing things that you didn't the good things you didn't know, you had to express also.
Roane Hunter 38:56
Oh, absolutely. You know, that's the thing, you know, couples wind up in therapy, because typically, it's you know, crisis mode. But the ones that stick with it begin to realize that, you know, the crisis, hopefully, will pass and then there's other issues in life, you know, aging parents and dealing with kids and, you know, career losses. Yeah, all the stuff, right? It having disembodied to, you know, a listening ear, and somebody that maybe has, you know, some the further down the road and has that same experience, whatever. But it's just, it's almost like we, you know, we we all need that. It doesn't always have to be, you know, paid friend. Maybe we can develop friendships with people that are safe people and you know, they can be You know, support and it sounds like you guys, you know, found safe people and kind of had a your community of support, which we always say is just essential. And it's essential for life is connection is the cure for everything that ails us. But certainly, as you guys walked through this, you, you found some good support and good counsel in the process.
Harrison Scott Key 40:32
Yeah, you know, i almost think you could draw, a Venn diagram of like, one circle would be therapist, one circle would be friends. One circle would be God. And maybe another circle would be journaling or something. And they don't all do the same thing, but they overlap a lot. Right? You can, there are definitely things that you need a paid professional who's got real, like in depth reading and training, right? And who and who's impartial in the best way. But you're exactly right man, like regular. Having regular friendships that you were you in where you sit and have a beer you sit and visit you don't have to it doesn't have to be some god awful men's breakfast Bible study shoot me in the head. I'm feeling like, I don't know what it is about. Christian men, especially in the south when they get together and eat eggs and talk about the Bible. Gosh, man awful. Anyway.
Roane Hunter 41:39
You're gonna make me go on a rant I by rail about this stuff. Yeah.
Harrison Scott Key 41:45
But to have a regular thing, and to live also just living in close proximity with people. So that you know, because man, the drop the drop in the drop by. I've got a great driveway. And I got a buddy who lives about five minutes away and and every now and then he's like, Hey, man, can I can I just swing by and we have a beer in your driveway. I got some stuff to lay on. I'm like, You got it man like love to.
Roane Hunter 42:15
He's obviously he's not Baptist, right.
Harrison Scott Key 42:20
He's, he's a good old Presbyterian.
Roane Hunter 42:24
Oh, yeah. That's one thing I like about Presbyterians is they will drink a beer with Baptist. Yeah. Well, they will if they're by themselves, but don't bring two of them. Yeah. Yeah,
Harrison Scott Key 42:36
Yeah they'll drink beer but they won't tell anybody about it. That's not white claw is it? Nah its Sprite.
Roane Hunter 42:46
So I do have a confession, you know, I had an ulterior motive getting on the podcast because I really need to get in touch with hair shirt. And a get him on the podcast. So that that's really why I wanted you on the podcast, because it sounded like he was very helpful in the process.
Harrison Scott Key 43:08
know, he, he's a he's a good dude, man. He's a he's a good dude. I still see I still see people from that church all the time. It's Savannah is a small town and I ride my I ride my bike past that church almost every day and still see, see friends from that church. And it's been interesting. I think a lot of people. For those who are listening. There's a lot in the book, a good, good few, three or four chapters about my experience with a very large historic downtown church that was sort of conventionally conservative, and that a lot of people would recognize as being similar to their own churches. Good folks. I know Calvinists wouldn't appreciate me saying good people, but they were good people. But very definitely very sort of old fashioned in the sense of privacy, you don't air dirty laundry, everybody puts a smile on and has their pearls and seersucker. And and there's you know, it's almost like I don't know it. I have I still have friends at that church. And still have a lot of respect for the Reverend hair shirt as I called him in the book, obviously not his real name. And I have moments where I think with I Was I too harsh. I mean, these are real. These are real people at a real church. I mean, our, like our kids go to school with kids who go to that church and play volleyball with kids who go to that church, and definitely noticed there definitely been a lot more cold shoulders since the book came out from some quarters, which I understand I mean, if somebody wrote a book slamming my church I probably bow up a little bit to them too. But I felt bad about it i'm like, Did I go too hard on these guys? And then as soon as I think that I'll get a message from somebody that says, I used to go to that church, and I think you let them off easy, I think you I think you were very confident. One, one person who used to go to that church who still lives here in town and goes to another he goes, he said, I think you you talked about what was best about that church and, and actually flattering way, in many ways. And I don't think they will know that or see that. But it was a lot of it was very flattering. The beauty, the kindness of people there, but it just, it was not a church where you could say, my wife cheated on me, can you help us? It's like, it's sort of like vomiting at Disney World. Like, this is not where that happens, buddy, we're gonna clean that up, and we're gonna put you in the underground tunnel, and we will deal with you. And so it's just it's not just that church. It's a whole a whole world, not just of Christianity, but a whole world of pagan and Christian alike who cannot abide by bad things happening. Can't talk about it can't deal with it. Because we because the world is too perfect in the way we've set it up here.
Oh, yeah. And certainly, you're obviously familiar with Mississippi. And, you know, we're the buckle of the Bible Belt and, but man, again, maybe it's just more inherent in the south. But what you just described as you know. We hear it every day. And, you know, we did a we did a podcast episode. We called it the helper trauma. You're typically a pastor, somebody in that capacity priest is on the front lines, and you know, the couple or individual goes to talk to hairshirt. And what they get is, it's more harmful than helpful. And man we, we just hear those stories all the time. And it's unfortunate. And I want to say it's changing. I want to say that.
Roane Hunter 46:21
I feel I feel good about the future, just because especially as therapy becomes more of a thing, and more accepted in every quarter. But you know, we experienced that same kind of unhelpful counsel, unhelpful reaction even in, in a Christian therapist.
That that's what we talked about the episode. It comes in different forms. It could be well meaning well intentioned, and I believe they're all well intentioned. Yeah, and we've we've seen it, people have come to us have seen other counselors, other therapists, and it comes in a lot of different flavors. That's the truth.
Harrison Scott Key 48:06
what helped, or giving example for your listeners. We went to a counselor after the first affair, or no. Well, yeah, we went to the same guy right after the first affair and right after the second, and, and Lauren was definitely on the fence about did she want to stay with me or not, but I think she felt for better and worse, she felt some guilt and shame. And she was like, Alright, I think I think I should at least pretend to try to make it work. And we'll see if my heart can follow. Right. And that's admirable that was that's about as mature as you can be in that moment to be like, alright, I don't love my husband, but we're married. And I'd like to love him again. One day, we'll see. So let's go to therapy and see if that happens. We went to this guy, the nicest man you could imagine. And both times he came on so hard with with sort of citing verses and what the right thing to do is that for my for me, I was just sound that he just sounded like a football coach. You know, preaching at Chapel is what he sounds like. But for my wife, who was really struggling with her Christian identity and the A. the wrongness of an affair, but B. the rightness of it on an emotional level, how the affair was with meaning so many emotions that that needs that she had. So to hear this man basically preach at her she shut down and she and this guy was not preaching like vigorously and hatefully he was just but he just sounded like a pastor. He didn't sound like a counselor. And and she shut down to he was no longer it was not a safe place for her to share because she was just going to hear the same thing she'd been hearing all her life. And so we intentionally chose a Jewish therapist, who according to my research and talking to people had gone to him would would not cite, but not be citing any Old Testament or New Testament passages. And I was like, and I majored in psychology. So like, I was like, Look, I was like, We gotta go to somebody who like has written some dissertations on fraud, or Carl Rogers, like we need to go, I want to go deep. Like, we got to get past this seminary training man, I want somebody who has wrestled with the demons of modernity. And this, and he's, he's been awesome. He is so awesome. In fact, I know of at least two pastors who are going to him now, which I think is amazing. I basically filled his schedule for the last for the next three years, Man im sending everybody to this guy.
Roane Hunter 50:57
Oh, yeah, it will, you know, the thing about just sexual brokenness, sexual betrayal. I mean, it really cuts to the core of who we are, in the most sacred part of who we are our sexuality. Because, you know, God, our Creator, placed within each of us his most creative aspect of who he is. The ability to create life and Boy, that that's why this cuts cuts to the marrow of our soul. And, and then in the, in the process. In working through this, we're really digging down into every aspect of our life and our belief system, and even formationally, you know, kind of the foundations of, of what we believe. And it's not just, you know, throwing Bible darts at somebody is probably not going to be helpful. But it is not uncommon, unfortunately. And, you know, that was the thing we just loved about the book was just, you know, the god piece. And just, you're working through just your relationship. And with him.
Harrison Scott Key 52:22
Yeah, I had to, I definitely had to come to terms with a lot of things. And if any, you know, this sounds, this may sound weird. But my being a writer really helped me sort of walk through this, this part of my life, this season of my life, because as a writer, and I don't mean like, I'm a writer, so I'm really awesome at trauma. I don't mean that I mean, two things. First of all, when all this happened, I immediately realized that I needed to think of my wife not as this sort of like 2D, cardboard person who said she would, you know, love me forever. And so she's always there. But I really needed to look at her like, I would look at a three dimensional character in a story. That sounds and that will sound so distancing and semi autistic and weird to some listeners, I know. But for me, I was like, because when a when a character does something zany, any writer will tell you, well, there's gotta be a reason why they do it. And so that was the first thing that I really, and that comes out in the book, I'm really trying to like, figure out who my wife is as a three dimensional person, and why she would do this, and what did I not see about who she was, and what contributed to this. And then the other piece of that is that when, really, there's always a wilderness moment in every great story where the hero is fighting a battle on this front. And when it doesn't go quite right, he's got to go the other way. And he's got to go through some through some really tough places before he can get back and keep fighting that battle. And I remember thinking like, well, what's my wilderness going to be? I don't I didn't know. And, in a way, it was spiritual. It's like, alright, like, I'm not gonna fight with my wife. I think I'm gonna fight with God for a little bit. All right, homie, what you got, you know, a lot of the book is sort of me wrestling with how I think about him and how I read the Bible. Do I believe all these things I've been taught my whole life about forgiveness and justice and mercy. So yeah, I've I ended up fighting a lot more battles with people besides my wife, battles with myself battles with who I see in the mirror battles with God and, and I in a way, battles with my dog, as you will read, if you read the book, battles, in some ways, battles with my children, or at least with school lunches and laundry and all those things. There were a lot of things that you There's a lot in the book where my wife and I aren't even in the same room, we're not interacting together, either because she'd moved out or because I was sleeping in a different room in a house. So as much as this book is about our marriage, I'd say more than half of it takes place when we are in different rooms.
Roane Hunter 55:16
Oh, yeah. It's, you know, just again, just incredible journey. And it's so hopeful and encouraging. And certainly thank our listeners and kind of our niche people that we work with, and those that are looking for some some hope, in the midst of chaos and crisis. Man, your book, been in yours, your story together with Lauren, is just, it's powerful.
Harrison Scott Key 55:56
thank you.
Roane Hunter 55:57
And I, certainly, so glad that you're able to join us and be a guest, and just, you know, man, have a conversation. Because that's, that's kind of what it felt like, was awesome. In it, I don't know if you ever get back to Mississippi, but we'd love to get you to come to one of our we do these men's coaching weekends. And it's not therapy. It's not counseling It's just the whole experience of getting men connected on a deeper level, where they're talking about this type of stuff, rather than isolated and disconnected up in their own heads, which is where most most men live. And, you know, you're that artistic bet. One of the things we talked about, is the imagination question. That question is always what if, you know, what if God wants to patch this thing back together? And can I imagine that that's even a possibility? And it's hard to in the midst of the of the crisis. There's no doubt.
Harrison Scott Key 57:12
Oh, yeah, yeah, I think for me, I mean, yeah, there's a lot there's a, when something like this happens when a marriage basically explodes. Whether it's because of an affair or addiction or death, I mean, there are a lot of things that can precipitate an explosion in a marriage. It was you have to walk very gently, you have to tread very gently in those moments and yet somehow remain very strong. You know, don't don't burn your wife's panties in the yard. As much as you want to fight for your marriage and sometimes fighting for your marriage means you know, humbling yourself which is not our picture of fighting at all you know fighting is with your hands and you know, you hurt somebody and you win but but I don't want to resort to the cliche of you know you to fight for your marriage you have to get on your knees that sounds like something you would see on embroidered on a doily but it does mean it often means humbling yourself in ways you're not expecting and you know with Lauren you know, I remember saying I said when she said she wanted to divorce me and marry this other guy and they were going to buy the house from me and they were going to live here with my kids. And I was like, I knew I couldn't change her heart. But you can't just argue somebody back into loving you. I said that's that's cool. I'm not going to leave though. I'm not going to leave the house. This is our house so I'm going to stay here you can leave if you want I don't want you to but you can leave I'm not going to make you stay and I think that really messed with her head that was the first step in the right direction that our marriage took I was like oh wait I'm not gonna run away right now I wanted to so badly go stay with some buddies and you know just like finally be free but I would just encourage anybody listening especially man when something like this happens do not run away and do not hurt yourself or other people. But with strength and gentleness stay and some pretty miraculous things can happen.
Roane Hunter 59:37
Well said my friend Well, we're we're getting close to ending our time together. However, I've got a I've got about 27 other episodes in my head that I would that we could do. Cuz I would love do an episode you So you're talking about your dad and your brother in, in hunting together, because I listen to the, you know, the largest man that ever lived, as well. That's Mississippi growing up. Yeah, you've been there done that. It's awesome. next time I've been in Savannah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna reach out and we're going to sit in your driveway and drink a beer together.
Harrison Scott Key 1:00:33
Let's do it, man. That would be great. I look forward to that.
Roane Hunter 1:00:39
No doubt, well man, so appreciate you being our guest and taking the time. And maybe just even me reading that part that you wrote will kind of get you going on this other book you're working on. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, absolutely. Well, Harrison, so appreciate you. If people want to get the book. What's the what's best way to? Well, we don't want them reaching out and telling you their horror stories of their sexual escapades. But, but what's the best way to kind of follow you and get in touch with you and get the book?
Harrison Scott Key 1:01:26
Well, you can get the book anywhere books are sold. You can get it on Amazon, you can get it at your local bookstore. Tons of bookstores have it. How to stay married by Harrison Scott Key. You can order it online, obviously, you can get it on Audible. My wife and I read the book. And a lot of people seem to have enjoyed listening to it. It's about eight or nine hours long. And then you can follow me on Instagram @harrisonkey know @harrisonscottkey or on Twitter @harrisonkey. But yeah, I'm around Google me. You'll either get Francis Scott Key or you'll get me and one of us is alive and one is not.
Roane Hunter 1:02:14
Well, we're glad you are thankful. I would also highly recommend listening to the book on Audible because your your your narration and delivery just adds a whole nother element to the book for sure. So, again, thank you so much. Appreciate you joining us and we will we'll we'll connect along the way. Thank you.
Harrison Scott Key 1:02:48
I really appreciate it. Y'all take it easy.
Ben Derrick 1:02:51
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