In our 25th episode, we dive deep into the complex relationship between sexuality and love. Join us as we explore the societal beliefs and personal shame that often wrap around our sexuality, causing confusion and misunderstandings within relationships. We debunk the common misconception that sex equals love and uncover the true essence of our greatest need, which is love itself. Drawing from Scripture and human experiences, we reveal the importance of managing desires and the consequences of allowing them to consume us. Sexuality, being a fundamental aspect of our soul and creative design, holds a sacred place in our lives. Discover the profound impact that sexuality has on our sense of belonging, emotional well-being, and even our ability to create life. Don't miss this thought-provoking and enlightening episode that delves into the depths of our intimate selves and invites us to explore the divine connection between love and sexuality.
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Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God and Chaos podcast, a conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in. Roane, back again for another episode. It's my standard intro. I like it. I'm gonna stick with it.
Roane Hunter 0:34
You got it down pat.
Ben Derrick 0:36
Let's call a spade a spade. We're here for another episode.
Roane Hunter 0:39
You got the radio voice going. I think I've told you. Probably many people have told you, you got the perfect face for radio.
Ben Derrick 0:46
Exactly.
Roane Hunter 0:47
I'm sure my age because you got the perfect face for podcast.
Ben Derrick 0:53
Yeah, most people don't know what the radio is. But I was gonna bring up and you've given me the excellent opportunity to do so. I've had three separate compliments on my beard this week. Which, you know, I can appreciate that as a bald man. When people compliment your facial hair, it's nice.
Roane Hunter 1:10
Dude, you're just follically challenged.
Ben Derrick 1:12
Oh, is that how that works? Okay? Yeah, yes. Well, the truth is about my beard, I think it's drawing attention now because it is desperately gray. And I don't know, I should probably have a session with you about that. Because I don't I'm not sure if you're aware. But I spent a decade as a pastor and when I started that job, my beard was this majestic Brown. And it was so impressive. And now I just look like have a sleigh with toys. That's how it works.
Roane Hunter 1:40
Yeah, that Yep, that's it. You nailed it. That's how it goes. Yeah. Or is there a recovery group for former pastors?
Ben Derrick 1:48
There probably should be. Right now it's called insurance, just selling insurance. Or furniture. Becoming an entrepreneur, writing a book about how hard your life was or something? I don't know. Former pastors are a weird breed.
Roane Hunter 2:01
Yeah, writing a book about all the meetings that you sat in. And yeah, yeah.
Ben Derrick 2:06
And you know, people get so offended the way I talk about church, the way I talk about being a pastor, but, man, it is just a bizarre scene, isn't it? I know, this is not what this episode is about. But let's just stop here for a moment.
Roane Hunter 2:18
I think we could do a whole nother like, not just episode but a whole nother podcast. Yes. On this subject. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 2:26
Church hurts.
Roane Hunter 2:28
I'll go on a rant. Yeah, we're going to change the topic.
Ben Derrick 2:32
That's right. Well, I'm recovering. Thanks for asking. It's going well, other than the color of my facial hair, I'm getting a lot of fulfillment, and I don't mind saying behind mic, specifically behind this effort, recording these conversations and knowing that these conversations are doing good for people worldwide. We see you Australia, we see the Netherlands.
Roane Hunter 2:53
Yeah. One point we were number one in Switzerland. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I've been there I went skiing with my 16 year old son there. Yeah, yeah. So it's, obviously the people remember me.
Ben Derrick 3:08
Interesting. If you look at the heat map on who's distributing our podcasts, we have a very high concentration, West Coast and East Coast, which is incredibly surprising, because we're in the deep south. But I think it's just further evidence that these conversations are helping people. And I like to stop every few episodes to mention what was behind this podcast, why this thing got launched, because you and Eva wrote a book and that book started making waves.
Roane Hunter 3:33
Yeah, it did. The book is sex god in the chaos of betrayal, the couple's roadmap of hope and healing, recovery from infidelity affairs, pornography and sexual addiction. And, you know, the book was born out of our own journey and my own recovery, from sexual addiction, now, over 33 years, and Eva as a partner. And we weave our story in. And also certainly the clinical training, the work that we've done, and the training that we have been through, and the it's just, it's been pretty amazing to see how God has used it and open doors. And, you know, it's why we do what we do today, and certainly why we do the podcast.
Ben Derrick 4:25
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing to watch, and even more beautiful thing to be a part of. So today, we're going to talk through something that you taught me in session a couple years ago, I've subsequently started to teach a lot of people and it's all it has its root in, we often say to people, what's broken in relationship has to heal in relationship. And we intuitively understand the broken relationship part, like yes, I don't like this. I don't like how we're participating in relationship. But many of us don't have anything to lay on top of what that brokenness is or what it looks like or how to decode it. You guys use something called the Karpman Drama Triangle that is just like balm to the soul of people who are trapped in relational drama. So we're going to spend some time today talking through that, the three separate points on the triangle, and then actually how to get out of that dynamic or how to heal that dynamic in particular ways. But I thought it would be helpful for our listeners to just walk around that triangle to hear you describe, essentially the three default positions in relationships that are experiencing chaos, and just walk around describing those three and then we'll layer on top how to get out of those. So where would you like to start?
Roane Hunter 5:40
Oh, yeah. You know, you said the Karpman Drama Triangle. Oftentimes when I say it, the guy will be like, Cartman? is this from south park guy? Yeah, he's got a relational theory.
Ben Derrick 5:59
Karp.
Roane Hunter 5:59
Yeah, K-A-R-P. But which, by the way, greatest episode of South Park was Harry and Megan, the worldwide privacy tour. If you haven't seen that, you just gotta go watch. Okay, Man Challenge accepted. Yeah, it's, it's beautiful, actually. Yeah. So all right, back back on back on point. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, but the Karpman Drama Triangle, obviously, it was a dude named Karpman that came up with this. We call it we call it the crazy dance is oftentimes it's called the victim triangle. It's really the three faces of victim. There's the classic victim, and then the two other sides of of somebody being a victim. And, but the thing of it is, it's like when we when we teach a couple this, or we teach it in our workshops and our intensives. And then we actually have them do the work and we get them on the triangles. And you we call it experiential therapy, because you're not just sitting on the couch, cognitively thinking about something that somebody is telling you, you're actually engaging your your brain and your body in the process, and you're moving around these triangles. And it just it has a deeper effect, and you remember it. And it's like with this with this one in particular, it's one of those things that once you see it, and understand it, you cannot unsee it.
Ben Derrick 6:48
That is so true.
Roane Hunter 7:26
This plays out in every relationship. And it's just you know, it's a triangle and, I have a kind of a drawing that explains it and breaks out the triangles, we'll we'll put this on our website, the sex god chaos.com website. And so that, you know, you can just go the website and you'll see it, but it's just its a triangle and the three sides of the triangle, three corners. One corner is the parent enabler and up underneath that is the word rescue or the rescuer. And then on the other corner is the victim. Kind of this is the classic victim that we all kind of think of when somebody's going victim and is is kind of in the word up underneath it is shrink. And then on the other corner is what we call the perpetrator. And the way you just said yeah perpetrator perpetrating right now and underneath that is is puff up or we put withdrawal under that as well. A lot of times when somebody a therapist is working with the drama triangles, or the Karpman triangles, they will put the withdrawal piece over under victim we put withdrawal under perpetrator because it most often that withdrawal that shutting down and holding that position for some long period of time is really more about covert rage than it is just I'm shutting down very punitive. Oh it is because when I withdraw from a relationship, and I put my partner in solitary confinement because I'm stonewalling, not talking in the corner, invoking my man superpower of sulking and pouting. By the way, man had a superpower it would be sulking and pouting death in the corner sucking her thumb. Because somehow we think that that's going to do something and help and we keep doing it.
Ben Derrick 9:55
I'm picking up on a little aggression as you describe this.
Roane Hunter 9:58
I think it's coming From just my own past history, okay, of my own superpower. So, yeah,
Ben Derrick 10:08
so we're working our way around, there are three points on the triangle. These are three bike ways to participate in relationship. We have the victim, we have the rescuer, we have the persecutor, and there's, you know, sub descriptions of that they kind of are more descriptive of the modality. But those are the three major points. That's it. Oh, yeah. Okay. So when we get involved with this, like, I'd love for you to describe because this doesn't sound very counselor like, we're up off the couch. And we're on a rug that has these points. And you guys will often say, All right, let's, let's have this argument. Let's rehab this argument as it went. And then you're physically moving the couple around this triangle?
Roane Hunter 10:51
Yeah, we were having the conversation in real time. And just, you know, I'll talk about mine and Eva's our crazy dance. The triangles, all of us have a starting block on these on these corners. I was afraid you were gonna say, Yeah. And what I have discovered it most of us men, not all, but our starting block is the victim corner.
Ben Derrick 11:18
I don't want that to be true. I will edit this out.
Roane Hunter 11:22
Yes. It always, when I'm working with an explaining it. I always tell guys, I'm like, No, look, this is my corner. You know, I've got my tent pitched right here. Nobody, my pity parties are the best right? Yeah. Because that's what I used to do. And that was my starting gate. starting block, because part of it for me, I grew up two older brothers. I mean, we worked, but we had, like, you know, my mother, you know, she did all the, you know, household stuff. That was not for men. And, and she had, you know, we had maids that helped her. And, I mean, we just wouldn't do any of that. We're working. And it's so you know, I get married and what would I be looking for, In a spouse? I wasn't looking for a wife, I was looking for a mama. Yeah, to do all those things, right? To rescue me. And so up at that, you know, the kind of the top, top corner of the triangle. Is that parent or enabler. It's enabler parent. And they are the rescuer. In the enabler, you know that. One is we kind of know, you know, what an enabler is if you're an alcoholic, and your wife says, you know, honey, I know you love to drink, I'll stop on the way home and get you another fifth of whiskey. And, yeah, I'm just, you know, I want to help you, right? Yeah. But I'm enabling bad behavior. And then on the parent side of rescue is the one that tells the other what to do, when to do how to do it, how high to jump, what to say when to say it. It's apparent it and, and, you've got now you get a parent child dynamic. In a relationship. I always tell guys, because, you know, my starting gate is the victim, And Eva, and her starting block starting place is the parent, not enabler. She doesn't enable much at all. Ehh not any. But so when we got married, you know, she grew up, she was keeping the books for her father's business when she was like, 14, so she's firstborn, overly responsible. And man, she she'll get it done. Right. Wow. So what's the victim looking for the rescuer that will get it done. And I can just kind of do whatever I need to do. The problem with it is though, that parent likes to tell the child you know what to do and how to do it. And, you know, to help and do your part. And, and so, those those two places were our starting starting gates in the conflict, right? And the way it would play out, he was asking me telling me to do something, and it I mean it works great, as long as I'm doing whatever it is, she's telling me what to do. Okay, and how to do it until I didn't. And then she would go to she, she's moving down the triangle to the other corner, and she would go to puff up.
Ben Derrick 14:51
Because not only did you not do it, you really didn't do it.
Roane Hunter 14:54
oh man and then so now...
Ben Derrick 14:56
Because you're rebelling, right? Is that how that works? You're rebelling against that parental posture even though that's, that's kind of what you wanted when it's too much you're like, wait a damn minute you know?
Roane Hunter 15:06
Feels controlling, she's just all and again, victim statement, when you hear yourself saying always and never oh gosh, she's always trying to control me. You know, she's always telling me what to do mmm, you're in victim mode. And so when that would happen, and now I'm pushing back against the mother the authority, the control, well mother is going to get mad and go down to persecutor perpetrator, and she is going to puff up. And now she's mad because I didn't do what I was told to do when to do it. And I would stay in victim mode like, oh, gosh, she always gets mad. Good grief, you know, again, just man, I'm living in the victim mode until I got a belly full of that. And then I would bounce. Now again, this is happening in conversationally, right? And this stuff is happening in milliseconds. And we are bouncing all around this triangle in these conversations in the conflict.
Ben Derrick 16:09
So you move you've actually, you have the ability to move out of the victim slot, And for your partner to move down into the victim slot? Is that how it worked? Can you? Can you be at the top of the triangle where you have a persecutor and rescuer to get or do you always have to have a victim?
Roane Hunter 16:26
No, no. The the way that that we work with it is is like on the red triangle. And we're going to talk about the green the healthy side in a minute. Yeah, but on the red triangle, you're not ever going to be on the same corner at the same time. Because if I'm in victim mode, now the other person they may be in, they may actually be on the green triangle and being boundaried. But I'm going to do everything I can to place them in that perpetrator row. Okay. Yeah. Because if if I'm a victim, there's got to be a villain. Right has to be Yeah. And you're in? Yes. And, and so I would bounce over into perpetrator and I would puff up and rage out. And your mind would be, you know, quick volcano explosion. And then Eva would bounce up to the rescuer. enabler side. And my next move would be the withdrawal. And again, we talked about it. I'm pissed, I'm angry, rage out. And then I go to shut down. And now I've gone from override to overt rage to covert rage. I am seething and pierced. I'm not going to talk to you. And I'm putting her in solitary confinement. And when I, when we demonstrate this, I walk off the mat about 20 feet. I'm not even, you know, Elvis has left the builder for real. Oh, yeah. But But that's, uh, you in order to hold that stonewalling position for some period of time. You're an angry dude. Right? And I was. And so, but the system works because I knew what would happen. Ava would bounce back up and she would not go back to parent mode. She's going to step over into that. And she's going to be an enabler, because she's starting to try to reel me back in because it's tapping into her old abandonment issues. What she grew up in, alcoholic home. And so this is how the system works, right? It's so she starts reeling me back in, like, Oh, we're more more than this. And, you know, she would spiritualize it, you know, this is the enemy and all this stuff. And just like is like reeling me back in. And because at that point, I'm starting to hear oh, wow, she really does want me she, she wants everything to be okay. She's, she's like, and so I'm getting hooked back into it. And she's reeling me back in. And I get close back, even on the mat on the triangles. And then what happens? Well, she immediately steps back over to that parent role and because tell me what I didn't do how I did it. I can't believe you blew up again. Can't believe you went through and shut down. And now we're back in the dynamic because I will just go right back to the victim corner. Oh gosh, this is this always happens bla bla bla Yeah. And so man we dance that dance for so many years. Until we began to figure it out
Ben Derrick 19:47
having no idea what you're actually doing. No. Oh no. So subconsciously there's like the there are these patterns of behavior in relationship and the way I describe it as a contract. You have a con fact of how you're operating, you may not understand it. But both people usually can articulate the pattern, but they don't actually understand what's going on. So the crazy dance just continues over and over and over again, this happens, you overlay it over the entire relationship, you can also overlay it over particular conflict. And so much of this I don't know, we sound like a broken record. But it goes back to what was modeled for us. We're gonna we learned it. Yeah, we learned it. And we kind of picked our favorite strategy, as you're saying, a lot of men do. Go victim and we have, we're gonna get to section just a minute, like I'm getting fired up about, Oh, yeah. We have a lot of men who are going victim, we have a lot of women, especially in conservative circles, who love to be that rescuer. Like, oh, I've got I've got Jesus in my heart, and I can change this man, I can fixing acid and session after session where that phrase actually comes out. I thought I could fix him. I thought it would be different after we got married. Here we are, you know, three years later, the same things going on? I'm like, Well, partly, that's your responsibility, because he's been this way the entire time. And you linked up with it. Oh, so why did you link up with it? His behavior is not your responsibility. But it is your responsibility to acknowledge that he was never going to change because you aren't going to be able to rescue enough. So when we start giving these words, even just off find even just the language is helpful for a couple. Now, no man likes to be told that he's going victim. Oh, yeah. But I actually like using that phrase, because then the anger comes out. Yeah. There you go.
Roane Hunter 21:39
Well, one with the way we work the triangles, kind of the the top corner is the the the enabler parent. And then the bottom two corners on one side is the classic victim on the other side is perpetrator. And I call that victim perpetrator line. That that's the narcissist lie, right? Oh, now you said a big one. Oh, yeah. Cuz it's really the two faces of narcissism. And we kind of I mean, okay, the classic narcissist, he's the bull, he's the perpetrator, it's his way or the highway. But when you go on that other side of the continuum, on the victim side, who's it all about? It's all about me and my feelings, and my pain and my hurt. And what's happened to me and, and it's, it's, it's just narcissistically focused. Oh, and with the mean, there's, there's no empathy for the other, because I'm just in my pity party, right? It
Ben Derrick 22:40
spent a lot of time around a narcissist. And that's exactly how that operates. And you can see them, it almost feels like and I know this is dangerous language, but dual personality. So because both of those things, when you're in relationship with a narcissist are extremely exaggerated. They are using it up front, no camouflages. You like you either get on with my plan, or you get the hell out of here. And then if that doesn't work, because somebody says up to them, we're gonna get to that in just a moment, then they definitely move over to Oh, poor me, here's my story. These are the reasons why I'm this way new. There's ask you to run over there and say evil. You know, I'm laughing about it right now. But I participated in that for nearly a decade. Yeah, isn't that crazy, because you
Roane Hunter 23:28
just hashtag me too.
Ben Derrick 23:31
You just feel compelled when a person takes a position on the triangle, you're like, Well, I've got one or two options here, which isn't true. And that's how you feel, I've either got to be this or this based on that. And that's what makes the crazy dance. Because when we don't get what we want, then we'll switch positions, and force the other person to switch positions so that we get what we want, right?
Roane Hunter 23:53
Man it is. So when we do our couples, intensives, the triangles are one of the main pieces of work. And the thing that's so interesting is because, you know, in an intensive, you're in there with like five other couples, right, in a in to therapist and sometimes to therapist observers. But what's interesting is when you know, we asked him to come up with a conflict, that's kind of the homework. Not a not a DEF CON 10 Something that's probably along the lens of a five so that we won't get any blood on our row. Yeah, because, yeah, we know wrestling matches. But what's interesting is when the couple invite when the one person invites the other into the triangles to have a conversation, you know, everybody wants to start out on the green, which is the healthy triangle and Iran picks their spot. And then what is so interesting within about seven seconds because we just tell them to have the conversation, right? We're not getting them like that sometimes, you know, when they doing the exercise they're trying to explain. We're like, no, no, no, you're talking to her. You're talking to him. You guys just have this conversation. Well, I mean, it is amazing how quickly they drop into it. And then the other thing that's neat in one of the great things about doing this work and kind of a group setting with other couples, is how the couples watching. They see it happening. And they're sitting there going, like, you need to move. You're, you're you're being a victim. But I mean, you see it so clearly. But when you're in it, because it's so ingrained in us, so just natural, kind of what we learned what we do, and what we practice. We have a hard time seeing it. Yeah. And so the couple is moving around these triangles. And you know, they'll they're just, they're having the conversation, and then what's so interesting, you know, it starts to heat up. And, you know, we're, we're just, we're trying to contain it, and we're intervening, but we're, we're going up and you know, I'm whispering in the guy's ears like they were, look where you're standing. Is it that? Does that look like perfect place? Based on what you just said? Where do you need to be? Yeah, he's, like, I said, maybe you need to find a friend, right? And pull the audience in, because they all know Yes. And so it's so your, the movement, part of it is why we call it experiential therapy. But it is not just the cognitive talking about it. And now you get your body engaged, because so much of all of this dysfunction is not just the way we think it's also the way we behave, and the way our body reacts and responds. So now, it's a super effective way to see it better for it to go deeper, and actually begin to change it as you learn it. And so, the, the, the way that, for me, kind of getting out of this, this cycle, when Ava began, you know, obviously we've we've done our own work, do our own work, still doing our work. But when she began to understand just you know, healthy boundaries Well, I would do the perpetrator thing, and, and then I'm off the mat over there sucking my thumb, sulking pouting in the corner, man superpower. And, and she would not like to reach out to me, she would not call me the way it would typically play out classic example. You know, it's always in the mornings, you know, I gotta go to work and you know, kids and stuff, and all the things are happening. And then you get into an argument. And then I will do you know, my little drama queen exit, because I've gone victim, she's in parent mode, we're just doing the dance. And then I go to, you know, private and rage out in front of the kids, right, but it gets heated voices raised. And then I'm gonna do my Dairy Queen, Drama Queen exit. And I'm like, I gotta go to work. And so I'm gonna leave, right. So I'm withdrawing. And then I get in the car. And, you know, like, I could count on. Eva's gonna call me before I get to the first stop sign in the neighborhood, right? I mean, it was like clockwork. I mean, just i knew it was gonna happen. And so then she calls and then we kind've, you know, get back into it, alright, but, but it's meeting a need. I knew that it would, that that would happen, right? And it's meeting the needs. It's like, okay, somehow, she loves me, she wants everything to be okay. So all of these behaviors, they meet a need, we wouldn't do them unless they met a need. I mean, it screwed up is distorted thinking, but it's what works and it works, right? And so, okay, then, you know, I hang up and we just okay, we're still doing the dance. But where it really began to change was when Eva began to have boundaries. And we get into the argument I have, you know, do my drama queen exit. Can I say that? That's probably offensive. Sorry. Yeah. You know, I'm always so concerned about offending people. But I do my little exit get in the car. And, you know, I get to the second stop sign. I get to the third I get out of the neighborhood. Dude, um, I'm almost in full blown panic attack mode, right? Because she's not calling me. Oh my gosh. And so now you know, I get to The Office and I could hold out till maybe 9:30. And then guess what I guess what I would do, I would pick up the phone and call her. Right? which is what I needed to do, because in essence, she was enabling my bad behavior of withdrawing, shutting down doing that crazy dance, And so now she's like, Nope, I'm not gonna do that. That's on me to move back towards her to own my part, rather than just being a victim. And so that was, boy, that was how, you know that that began to change it, I began to see it. Eva saw it. And that's how this stuff works. We didn't have anybody to show us the Drama Triangle.
Ben Derrick 30:47
Yeah, you're just you guys are just figuring this out?
Roane Hunter 30:50
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But boy, it's just it's so classic. And, and so that's kind of how it plays out with so many couples. And and once you begin to see this, it actually gives you a language to be able to talk about it. You know, not, "ahhh you're just being a victim again." But hopefully it would be you saying "man, I'm recognizing that I'm dropping into that old victim mindset." "Oh, my gosh, that's not gonna go well, I know how that ends. I know how it plays out.""Well, what can I do?" And so that kind of brings us, I think, to the healthy triangles. And what we do is we just have a, there's another triangle that's overlaid on the red triangle. And it's the green triangle. When you come in our office, we have a rug with this with this on it. And people that don't know what it is, they come in, and they think it looks like a pentagram or looks like we're sacrificing goats in the office, because we have... Oh, yeah... Oh, my gosh, yeah. I told you, Honey, this is weird. Yeah. And but we have a cross in the middle of the triangles. And there's reason for that. But on the green triangles, the three positions on that, are there's there's ownership. And there's boundaries, and, and then there's negotiation and solutions. Agreements, is what's that that's what's up underneath, negotiate and find solutions.
Ben Derrick 32:33
That even just sounds more healthy.
Roane Hunter 32:37
Yeah, under under ownership is responsibility, and under boundaries, is sacred ground, right? Because I think the goal in life is to become a well boundaried human being. That's who Jesus was right? That's what he modeled. And I think that's the goal for all of us. To be a whole. That is wholeness is a well boundaried person. And so the way out of the red triangle is we call it it's a diagonal move. So across the triangle, diagonally, on on victim is ownership. Right? And up underneath ownership is responsibility responsible. Because what does a victim have to do, in order to get out of that? Well, I've got to own my part, I've got to own that I am, like, not being responsible relationally kind of putting it on the other person to tell me what to do and when to do. No, I've got to take initiative. And so you go diagonally across the triangle. And in the center of the triangle is a is is the cross because we believe that it's like the idea of, of my true self in Christ, who I was created to be from the beginning, before all this crazy stuff started to develop. But I'm, I'm actually recovering the life the person that God intended me to be from the beginning. So the cross is symbolic of like, I know that if I go to healthy, that things are probably going to, like work out a whole lot differently. But if I just stay in unhealthy the red triangle, I know how that's gonna play out. Right?
Ben Derrick 34:31
I love that imagery, too. Because it's a signal like something has to die. So something has to be put to death. And if you want to see a victim's brain, completely short circuit, you start asking them ownership questions. You know, a classic one that we use all the time: What part do you think you play? Oh, yeah, that's an ownership question. You know? Even when someone is saying, Well, you this and you know, "I just need this and you won't be this for for me" and all this victim language, and then you turn it around and say, Well, what does the solution look like for you, you ask them to describe what it is they actually want. And it just they flatline because they're so committed to victim mentality. They can't even put language to what they want. They just want to make sure that that those other people are on the other two spots in the triangle. That's the major job like don't move down this direction. So it makes sense that ownership would be on the opposite side of that. It also makes sense that if you have spent your adult life and this is most people, they adopt this in childhood, and they use it for their entire adult life. If you've been using this for 20 years, and you and you're challenged to take part in ownership of your own story, boy, that feels frightening. So foreign. How would you do that without a guide?
Roane Hunter 35:51
woahhh man. Yeah. Scares scared to death right?. Yeah. Because I mean, I need it's not that I just want a rescuer. I need a rescuer. oh, gosh, yep. Because part of it, you know, in some ways, I don't know how, right that's that's a in Not that that's even a victim mindset. You probably don't know how, yeah.
Ben Derrick 36:16
That's very hard to admit, though, isn't? Oh, totally. It's hard for me to admit that almost over anything. It feels embarrassing. Yeah. Who wants to be embarrassed? Yeah, there are lots of hurdles to climbing out of that victim posture and jumping onto the green triangle.
Roane Hunter 36:32
Oh, it is. And so on the perpetrator corner, the diagonal movement across. And again, it's like you go across, you go through the cross. Yeah. And that's just simply the idea of moving from my false self, on the red, the unhealthy moving to my true self, and that that's what it symbolizes, right? And so, on the opposite corner, diagonally is negotiate and solutions. And underneath it, it says agreement. Because we know that like getting defensive, getting angry sulking, pouting, all those things that we do. It never ever works.
Ben Derrick 36:34
No, don't say it Roane!!
Roane Hunter 37:21
yeah. It but yet we continue to do it. Yeah, this time it will. But it never does. But we'll just continue to perpetuate it. It's so if I move over, because like, Whatever, I'm angry about whatever I'm puffed up about or I'm withdrawn about, there's probably a way to find a solution, and agreement together. But if I'm just not even talking, the chances of that happening are zero.
Ben Derrick 37:53
That's where this modern language comes in, of turning away or turning towards. That's why that's been I think so popular as of late. Is that turning away is the red triangle, that turning towards is the green triangle.
Roane Hunter 38:08
And even though we say, you know, the more intimate relationship is and when we say intimate, we don't mean sex. We're talking about emotional connection that part. Yes. Had to delineate that. Oh gosh, you know, it, that word got hijacked in the 1400s. And it made its way into Bible translations in Yeah, it's just like our Yeah, we have to delineate that. Yes, two different things. It but but the more intimate relationship is, the more agreements you're going to have. I mean, we have unspoken agreements with neighbors, right? I mean, you may have spoken if the guy's a moron or something like, Dude, don't come get my lawnmower, yeah they are, don't don't get the lawnmower out of my garage without asking me. Hopefully, he would just kind of we have that unspoken agreement. Sometimes it might be some spoken agreements. And you would have a few of those, right? But when you start thinking about intimate relationships, close relationships, in order to make a relationship functional, you got to have lots of agreement is agreements in order to make it work. And agreements are not boundaries. Boundaries are who I am as a man, who Eva my wife is as a woman. And that's my values and my integrity, things that I will do things that I will not do things that I will accept things that I will not accept. That's boundaries. You know, there's no such thing as boundaries in a marriage. Right? Individuals have boundaries, and then healthy, whole, Well boundaried people are able to keep their agreements. If I'm not keeping an agreement, then it's not the other person. There's something going as something amiss inside of me, where I'm not keeping an agreement. And that's a boundary issue.
Ben Derrick 40:05
Right? That sounds like an episode in and of itself.
Roane Hunter 40:09
Absolutely. And so we moved from perpetrator over to negotiate, and, you know, solutions and agreement. And then if you're in the rescue enabler, parent mode, the movement across the triangle is to boundaries. You got to learn to, you've got to stay in your lane, right?
Ben Derrick 40:33
Don't make the phone call by the first stop sign.
Roane Hunter 40:35
Exactly, yes, she was just enabling bad behavior. And so it's just the idea, I'm going to clean up my side of the street, I'm not going to go over there on your side and clean your side of the street and tell you what to do when to do or how to do it or enable bad behavior. I'm going to stand on my sacred ground. And it's, again, back to boundaries. It's what I will accept what I will not accept what I will do and what I will not do. And that's, that's our sacred ground. And the great thing about becoming well boundaried, is if the other person wants to dance on the red triangles, or you can just stand there and watch them all day long. Oh, man. Wow, look at that move. But it's, but it's the idea of like, I do not have to engage in behavior that is not good for me not good for the relationship and probably destructive. And so becoming well boundaried.
Ben Derrick 41:39
So just to layer another phrase on top of that, that I've had connect with my client base, and it really comes down to codependence doesn't it? How to be able to say to the other person in the relationship, whether that be friend or spouse, or neighbor, to be able to say, Hey, I'm okay. Even when you're not okay. Yeah, I don't want you to be not okay. I'm going to help the triangle. You're welcome to join me. There's plenty of room over here. But I'm okay. If you're not okay. And I think this is where we see a lot of men falter. And this is going to have to be another episode for sure. When we when we pepper sex in there on this Drama Triangle, man, it gets intense. So I want to talk about I want to dedicate an hour just for that, but to be able to say to the other person. I'm alright. Even though you're dysregulated. I'm okay. I'm not going to join you there. But you're certainly welcome to join me here. But that's going to be on your own initiative.
Roane Hunter 42:39
Absolutely. Yeah. And and then the key to that is actually being okay.
Ben Derrick 42:45
You make a valid point Roane, I'm not just pretending to be okay, Fingers crossed for five minutes, You better get over here, I'm okay. I have. And the thing that I find so helpful, is to ask people when they're caught in this what do you do? When your friend or your spouse is dysregulated? And they're over on that? What are your hobbies and habits? What are the things that you fill that space in with to be okay? Do you have something outside of that person that brings you fulfillment that does, as you're pointing out, actually bring you fulfillment? Or is it just another kind of Prop? And this happens all the time. Well, I'm just gonna go out to the garage, you know, because my hobbies are out there. That's not what you're doing. You're baiting them out there. I'm gonna pull out the book, I'm gonna put in the air pods. You're really actually just sending them signals that you're not okay. Yeah. But do you have things that are legitimate, that bring you joy and are fulfilling? And if we have a couple that is extremely codependent, those things have not been built over the years. If they were present in the first place. The marriage has gobbled them up. And we're left with nothing. We're not having physical or non physical intimacy with our spouse, and we don't know who we are apart from operating in this trauma. It can be a very lonely place.
Roane Hunter 44:12
Oh, yeah. Well, even when I talked about, you know, the perpetrator corner, that idea of withdrawal will covert rage. You know, we're actually what I would do I'm putting Eva in like she's like a POW right? She's it's psychological torture worst form of worst form of punishment. We know this is putting somebody put them in solitary. And guess what? They will go crazy. Ultimately, that's what happens. And in so putting the other person in this solitary confinement, she knows something's wrong, but of course, I'm not talking because I'm
Ben Derrick 44:54
too busy winning the talk.
Roane Hunter 44:55
because my superpower Yeah. And so But she's sitting there knowing something's wrong. And then she doesn't know what's wrong, right? And so, from a psychological standpoint, it is, I think, one of the worst forms of unhealthy conflict that that any of us can do. And so, you know, I've got to, instead of waiting on her to somehow rescue me enable that behavior my, I've got to move back into the relationship, rather than this, because, again, it's a rageful position to do that to that person.
Ben Derrick 45:41
all the time. Man, you got to use your words, use your words here, you know, and it is helpful in in a setting like that with a counselor. For that initial, those initial words that are usually rage coming out, are directed kind of at the counselor. Well, she was, you know, anger spews towards him. And like, I'm okay, yeah, I clean that stuff off me all day long. Thats what i do right? And im gonna get paid, right? So I'm like, okay, you know, and that's where we can say, because we aren't on the triangle, and look there, there are peers who are have done their work, going back to another episode that are healthy, that can help people process through this as well. But to receive that rage, say, I see that man, I see how angry you are. But what's beneath that? You know, let's go to that next layer. Because if, if you don't have that third party, then the rage just fuels the dance around the triangles. But you've got to have somebody that's able to receive that, you know, I think that's a very important part of this. Well, how do we get off to the red and onto the green? What do we do like, talk to somebody who's not on either one with you in that relationship. And that can view it and understands this paradigm. And as you pointed out earlier in the episode for couples to be able to understand this, and I find, I would love to hear your thoughts on this, I find that this as much as it is involved in marital relationships, the parent child relationship is usually drenched in this as well.
Roane Hunter 47:13
Absolutely. And you know, when you kind of begin to learn this and figure it out and see it, what you begin to see is not just you know, marriage relationship, not parent child relationship, It's every relationship. it's work relationships, It's friend relationships, you will begin to see it playing out. And it's like I always say with this, especially once you see it, this you cannot... Oh, man. Yeah,
Ben Derrick 47:42
absolutely. So we'd like to end the episode, I would assume this would be a good place to put just a pause before we get to the sexual part of talking about this, just to encourage those that are wanting to jump off the red and onto the green, studying those sides of negotiating of ownership of boundaries, those would be good things to begin to focus on and trying to figure out how to incorporate those into your relationship in new ways. Would you say that's an effective thing, even if the partner friend isn't joining you in that?
Roane Hunter 48:16
Yeah, I think again, the the only place you can go when other person wants to dance is you gotta go to boundaries, right? That's the only place you can go. Because they're trying to draw you in they want to spin, they want to suck you in, and have the old familiar dance. Because it is familiar, right? And in some ways, it's worked for us very unhealthily. But they are wanting to suck you into that. And if you can just be well boundaried and not engage in it, boy, you that chances are, if one person can stay on the green, and not go into the red, this stuff will usually play itself out pretty quickly. But if we both jump into the sandbox and start throwing sand in each other's eyes and hit hitting each other over the head with Tonka trucks, yeahhh things are not gonna end well.
Ben Derrick 49:17
so the boundary is put in place. It's not working anymore. Woah, my strategy is not working anymore. Which usually we respond to that. Both male and female with rage with anger. But to hold your ground there and to say, I'm just I'm not participating in this any longer. And I don't have to be mad I think this is a great thing to say here. We don't have to be mad put a boundary in place. That's something I confused. I would say probably until just a few years ago.
Roane Hunter 49:47
I think we all I'll do, especially early on. Oh yeah. It's just the idea of you know, say what you mean mean what to say and don't say it mean?
Ben Derrick 49:56
look at that. you must do this for a living.
Roane Hunter 50:00
The just steal that from Jim Chris.
Ben Derrick 50:03
Okay, so let's start. Let's start with boundaries, we're going to pick this conversation up in our next episode, when we layer sex in there because that tends to complicate things a little bit and, it amps it up a lot. And I find that they're most couples that are searching for help. That's usually the thing that sends them that direction. So we'll, we'll break that down our next episode, but encouraging our listeners at this point, to investigate ownership, to investigate boundaries and negotiation, and figure out maybe a great place to start is are you even good at any of those things?
Roane Hunter 50:36
Yeah, one of the things we tell couples sometimes, you know, cause boundary war game man, there's a lot involved there. But but a great place to go always. To get out of the red is just go to ownership. You know, what, what can I own? What's my part in this silly conflict? What, what can I own and then just do repair work around, you know, the rip that you've caused. Where there's a rip, there's got to be a repair. And so ownership is always just a great place to start. And don't blame the other. Just own it. I was wrong. Stop saying I'm sorry. It doesn't mean a whole lot anymore. But when you say I was wrong, it has more impact.
Ben Derrick 51:33
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