In this episode, we discuss the challenges of personal growth and the importance of understanding our past experiences in order to create a better future. We emphasize the need to unpack and examine painful childhood experiences and personal baggage to gain insight into why certain patterns or choices persist in our life. There are incredible benefits to telling the truth to ourselves and to delving into the reasons behind our choices and behaviors. Acknowledging that quick fixes are often sought in our fast-paced culture, we stress the need for patience and trust in the process of personal transformation. While frustration while doing your work is common, connecting the dots and creating positive change takes time and effort. Deep-rooted false beliefs and belief systems need to be challenged and changed. It's about embracing the journey of personal growth and understanding that it is a longer and more intricate road than initially anticipated.
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Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God and Chaos podcast, a conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in.
All right, Roane. Back again, recording podcasts. That's what we do.
Roane Hunter 0:29
That's how we make our living. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 0:32
Man, if that were only true, How amazing would that be?
Roane Hunter 0:35
If we just got to do this all day every day. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 0:39
That would be great. I'm having more and more conversations, though, I'd love to talk about-- let's just brag about ourselves for a minute.
Roane Hunter 0:44
I think that's always good.
Ben Derrick 0:46
Yeah, I'm having more and more conversations with people who are listening in and receiving benefit from the type of content -- That's what I want to focus on as we start out --the type of content that we're willing to record. It seems that a lot of people avoid these topics, right, which is something that's bothered you for a very long time.
Roane Hunter 1:04
Yeah, we just the topics that we talk about are things that need to be talked about. And certainly, you know, from a Christian perspective, but even from whatever perspective because these things affect everyone and everybody,
Ben Derrick 1:24
Yeah. Isn't that true? You don't have to pull out your Christian card before you engage with sex. Yeah, it's a part of everyone's life. Yeah.
Roane Hunter 1:32
Yeah. And it's like, you know, it's like, you've got the two extremes of just, you know, kind of the way of the world is just like, anything goes, and nothing really matters. And then on the Christian side of the fence, it's like, oh, gosh, don't talk about it. You can do it to have some kids or something. But don't go much beyond that.
Ben Derrick 1:53
Both approaches are bad. But what I find very interesting is that the podcast is the perfect medium to kind of solve that problem. And I do this in my life too, like I'm in the truck by myself, pull up Spotify, search a topic. I'm like, I want to learn about this. And I can, and it doesn't matter, because nobody else has to know that I'm learning about this. And I think our podcast falls into that category. What's interesting, though, is when partners start trading information on this podcast. I've had a couple sit with me in my practice, and like I realized what was happening when I started listening to these episodes as well, what was leading to those questions. So this is a great kind of collateral benefit that we're finding is that couples are listening to this podcast together, which is pretty cool.
Roane Hunter 2:37
Oh, yeah. And certainly, you know, it can generate some very healthy discussions, necessary conversations. Just you know, certainly the area of sex and marriage is mostly problematic. It's one of those things that couples evidently they do it because there's some children running around. People are having babies. I think that's how that works. But the thing that we find is, man, they never talked about it. Most couples operate still in their adolescent to high school, teenage sex dance. And they're kind of stuck there. And, you know, we just believe that healthy sexuality is in a Christian marriage, and a marriage is simply, you know, a lot of communication, and the conversation is natural and organic. There's not -- there's no shame around it. There's no tension, there's no anxiety, you can actually just have a conversation.
Ben Derrick 3:36
Yeah, jumping back, just we're going off script now. Why not? It's our podcast.
Roane Hunter 3:39
It's what we do.
Ben Derrick 3:41
I find that when, especially when we're talking about coupleship, there's often not very much curiosity. And there are different reasons for that, I think. But when you start describing, Hey, we should be curious about this particular part -- I'm jumping back now to our few episodes ago on the arousal template. Let's be curious about what's working and what's not working. We really see at that point in a relationship the lack of a mentor, emerging, wouldn't you say?
Roane Hunter 4:07
Oh, yeah, I mean, we get very little information.The information that we do get is usually backwards. And most of the time, we just get we get nothing and we come up with messages around sex and sexuality. But, you know, it's like for every behavior, there's a reason for every behavior. And with the arousal template with the, you know, sexual desire, all of those things, when you start looking at it, those things get formed in our lives, like our belief system. And when we're getting misinformation, not necessarily from Russia. But but we're getting nothing, man, we just kind of come up with it on our own. And so much of the literature out there is not really helpful. And, so you have no way nobody to talk to nobody to guide you. And I believe we all need that in every area of our life.
Ben Derrick 5:13
No doubt. And if you don't have it, I find and you could probably confirm this, that if we feel like something's wrong, and we don't understand that there's a motivation behind every action, then we believe the reason is because we're just really terrible people. So we stop there. And that shuts the process down, doesn't it?
Roane Hunter 5:32
Oh yeah. And, and then you, then you get shame wrapped around sexuality because somehow, you know, in the world today, none of us are, are sexually adequate, right? Because the world is crazy when it comes to sex. And so we just walk around feeling like we're missing out, we're less than and we're inadequate. And then when you take our sexual histories, and you put that on top of it, most of our sexuality is just wrapped in shame, or shame is wrapped around our sexuality. We always say it's like kudzu on a barn. Now for our our listeners that aren't from the south, we might have to explain kudzu. But we'll do that on another - we'll do a whole episode.
Ben Derrick 6:19
That is a lengthy process. Suffice it to say that those two things are intricately linked, and very hard to parse out very hard to separate. And usually it takes an outside party to the relationship or to the individual to help figure that out, which leads us into the big topic we're going to talk about today. And honestly, I can't believe it's taken us this long to have this conversation, because it is a phrase that comes up very early on when people are seeking help. And I should probably say at this point, the right kind of help. This phrase emerges in the room, and some of our listeners will actually notice it. Tell me about your work? Have you done your work? And we often get the blank stare across the coffee table. What? What do you mean? So we're gonna take an episode to explain that maybe some pitfalls around it, how to do it in a healthy and correct manner. Your approach to what doing your work looks like just so that people who are pursuing because we have listeners literally worldwide who are pursuing help, which is crazy to say, but as they're pursuing help, and that question is offered to them, they will understand what's being asked because no one -- pursuing help is already a nerve racking experience. They, they don't want to feel also like an imbecile because they don't understand the language. So when you look across the table at someone and say Alright, well tell me about the work you've done previously. Have you done your work? What is it that you're actually asking?
Roane Hunter 7:48
Oh, yeah. It's always interesting. You get people that have seen other counselors maybe, or gone to the pastor or someone like that. And they've, they've talked to somebody about something and, you know, I always ask, you know, tell me about, tell me about the work you did with Counselor X or whatever. And I mean, the answers, I should just start recording them or writing them. I can't record them. I would violate HIPAA laws.
Ben Derrick 8:21
That would be a problem.
Roane Hunter 8:22
Yeah, but writing down. I mean, certainly, I just remember a lot of them in the sense that it's like, they kind of give me a blank stare like a deer in the headlights, like, you know, like, What do you mean, the work that I've done? I've been to counseling. Okay. What did you do in that process? What did you uncover? What? What are your aware of -- your new awareness? Have you done work around your family system? Have you done work around trauma? I mean, there's a lot of work that's involved in the process. But a lot of times, people go to counseling, and it's kind of how do you feel today? And that's really not helpful.
Ben Derrick 9:07
I personally have never experienced that. I've heard you talk about it. And I've heard other clinicians talk about it. Never was my experience. So I feel very blessed in the truest sense of the word. It wasn't like, hey, let's just ruminate on my feelings today. That would be maddening, but it is the experience so many people are paying to have isn't it?
Roane Hunter 9:25
It is. And, I mean, if you're doing things in your life that are incongruent with your integrity and your values, you're probably going to have anxiety and depression. I call a lot of what we do our therapy modality would just simply be integrity therapy, because when we are violating our value system and who we say we are, or who we want to be, it's going to create this internal conflict. And oftentimes, like there's just been no searching of that, or going into that, looking at the history, what you grew up in, the good, the bad and the ugly. And it's just kind of dealing with the crisis of the day or the feelings of the moment.
Ben Derrick 10:17
Yeah, just it's hard for me to imagine how that would help anyone feel like they've made a sense of progress. Except for maybe they feel better on the walk back to their vehicle, that they offloaded a little bit of emotion. But after that, I mean, by the time you get back to engage your own life, your own story there, those same motivators are there that you haven't uncovered. So you've mentioned a few things already, I think we need to decode but part of doing your work is digging into the language that you guys use in your practices, owning your story. That's a lot of what this work centers around, correct?
Roane Hunter 10:50
Oh yeah. You know, the things that all of us are dealing with, you know, it typically, well yeah, it always starts in childhood, what we grew up in. And it's not about blaming parents by any stretch. It's just simply about naming the issue, the problems, the shortcomings, the things that that you've got to look at and understand in order to be able to change. And if you're not kind of doing a fearless and searching moral inventory, as we would say, in 12-Step vernacular, you're probably just going to, like, row around in a rowboat with one oar. Right?
Ben Derrick 11:35
That sounds miserable.
Roane Hunter 11:37
Just driving around in a cul de sac.
Ben Derrick 11:39
Yeah, we wouldn't want to do that. So let's talk about real quickly. This also was not part of the script. But let's talk about one of the main blockers for this work. You mentioned childhood, you mentioned early life, all of those things. I find that most people are very protective of mom and dad, specifically to be able to say, Oh, he was a good man, he's a great man, celebrated man. So I often say back to that, hey, I believe you. Good for you. What did he not give you that you needed? Right? Those sorts of questions. That's what the work sounds like. Correct?
Roane Hunter 12:13
Oh, yeah. Yep. It's, you know, I think a lot of it is, is basically in faith communities, you know, it comes from the fifth commandment. You know, we're talking early right out of the gate. Yeah. You know, honor your mother and father. And oftentimes, I mean, in the English language, when we think of the word honor, it's like, we can't say anything bad. We can only say good things. And it just breeds this kind of blind loyalty or-- I mean, just it's it's really dysfunctional. Like if mom and dad were crackheads and locked you in the closet, burned you with cigarettes and threw some food in there every now and then until they let you out at 18, I'm not so sure that the God I know would say, honor that. Right? And you can see it in the extremes. And it's interesting, the Hebrew word for honor, in that passage is K A B E D, I'm sure I'm mispronouncing it.
Ben Derrick 13:17
I'll give you credit.
Roane Hunter 13:18
The Hebrew scholars will be calling in or emailing you.
Ben Derrick 13:21
Yes, there are a few of those.
Roane Hunter 13:22
Email Ben about that. I'm speaking southern Hebrew. And but the the word is actually a word picture. And it's the picture of a scale. And what God is saying, is the idea of just like, weigh it out, you got to see the good, you got to see the bad, what you got what you did not get from mom and dad. And it has a double meaning in that those relationships have impact, they carry weight on every relationship you will be in the rest of your life. And so God is even saying that in the fifth commandment. It's not blind honor, loyalty, I can't say anything bad. No, God wants us to see it. Because otherwise, the sins, the dysfunctional behaviors of the fathers and the mothers will be passed on to the third, fourth, fifth and forever generation until somebody decides this has got to change. And, and it's just amazing to me, if we don't become aware of it, I always say we wind up living life like the directions on a shampoo bottle, right? Lather, rinse, repeat. If we do not become aware of it, we are destined to repeat it. And then the Old Testament is just God's picture showing us the consequences of dysfunctional behavior from the patriarchs of our faith. They're just broken as a left-handed monkey wrench.
Ben Derrick 14:58
I'm gonna have to google that put it the show notes for our listeners. No one knows what that means.
Roane Hunter 15:02
Yeah. I mean, I guess if you're left handed a left handed monkey wrench is great thing. But yeah, I'm right handed. So if you ever tried to use it, anyway, yeah, try it. Yeah, but those stories are there, and God doesn't hold back. He doesn't hide it, he doesn't cover it up, he doesn't paint them as perfect. They're just the real stories of real human people that God used in the midst of their dysfunction. But I think God calls us to something better, even in that honor your mother and father passage, it's more of the idea. Like, you can do this different. And it gives us the picture of like, so often how not to do it. And then the consequences that play out as a result.
Ben Derrick 15:48
it's so interesting how subtle that plays out, though in modernity, in someone who is pursuing help, which we should acknowledge here on this podcast is, is a big step of courage. Congratulations for people who take that step. However, once you get into the room, and you're talking with someone, it is very typical to operate by default, and say, I'm here to talk about what's happening right now. That's the thing that's acute in my life, that's the thing that I want to get solved. And some clients experience frustration that I think the best clinicians out there will take a moment to say, Okay, well, you know, bring me up to speed what's actually going on, what's brought you here, I'm sure you're not here to tell me how great things are going. So what is the problem, quote, unquote. And then a good clinician is going to start steering the conversation to the what's led to this. That can be very frustrating for people if they don't understand this is what the work looks like, this is what long term healing has to look like. Or we're just applying a bandaid to something that's probably a very deep -- overused language here -- but a very deep wound that if we don't heal it from the inside out, will become very problematic. But the person who's sitting in the session is thinking, Look, man, I'm just super depressed because my job sucks. Like, okay, I get it. But why? Why are you in the job in the first place? Why haven't you left already? What is it that's pressing you to want to stay in the situation that is miserable for you? Do you have a history of something that's guiding you to make these decisions that are ultimately bad for you? That's real work there, rather than just saying, Okay, well, let's give you seven steps to have a happier day. But that stuff's actually happening for people, you know, because it's -- in subtle ways, it's what the client is asking for, even though it's not what they need. So how do you navigate that space? Where you understand before the client does, I know what they need they just don't know they need it yet.
Roane Hunter 17:49
Yeah, I think that's, you know, that it's kind of a, it's a tricky part. Because those things that are up underneath it, the backstory, the painful childhood experiences, all the things that we've gone through, have brought us to the place that we are today. And part of the work is, you've got to go back and begin to unpack it, you've got to begin to look at it in order to understand how you got there. Because chances are, if you're just in a miserable job situation, and you just decide to you know, exit and go find another job, well, chances are you're gonna wind up in another miserable job situation.
Ben Derrick 18:34
Uh oh, uh oh. Now you're starting to tell the truth.
Roane Hunter 18:36
Oh, yeah, oh yeah. And so you have to begin to dig in, like, Why do I make these choices? Why do I stay in a job too long? Is it because I'm overly loyal? Is it because I'm codependent? Is it because... I mean, and then when you start looking at what you grew up in, you began to see it. But oftentimes, you know, the clients coming in the door sitting there, they're wanting that magic pill, quick fix, because we live in a microwave culture. And I always say so much of the work that we do, I mean, we could, I could, you could just call it spiritual formation, because we're working with a lot of times, it's just deep rooted false beliefs, a false belief system. And in order to change that, that's going to take a little effort, right? Because you didn't get to where you got to in, you know, overnight. And, you know, took a number of years in unpacking that and beginning to understand it, it is going to take time. And so I tell clients, you know, this is a process, and part of what you have to do is trust the process. And, you know, frustration is common because like you know, we're over here talking about, you know, family and my story and growing up in my home. And over here, my house is on fire, you know, I need I need something, I need to connect these two things. Well, we're gonna get there. But you know, it's a, it's a longer road than what you think when you walk in the door.
Ben Derrick 20:17
That is perfectly described because I understand the desire because I've been in that chair my whole life. Something needs to change quickly. I need a fix. But it's interesting, that's addictive language, isn't it? I need a fix. I need a quick fix, I need this to go away quickly. And part of it is becoming comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's part of the work isn't it, and that the work has happened over a period of time. Interesting, especially in Christian cultures, we have two solutions for almost every problem. It's either a retreat or a book. So I'm going to give you a book to read or you're going to go on this 48 hour experience and things will be solved. So when they run into a clinician that's coming from a biblical worldview that doesn't handle -- hand them that and handle them that way, that can be very disruptive can't it?
Roane Hunter 21:08
Well, you missed the two big ones. You know, you just need to pray harder, which actually means grunt when you pray. At least that's what I've discovered. And then, you know, just you need to read your Bible more.
Ben Derrick 21:20
Ah, yeah, that's those are two good ones. We should do an entire episode on Dumb Stuff Christians say to people.
Roane Hunter 21:27
Man, we, I don't know. That's a --
Ben Derrick 21:29
That's a series.
Roane Hunter 21:30
That's a year of daily episodes.
Ben Derrick 21:33
Read your Bible more. Hey, I know your house is on fire. Sit in the living room and read your Bible.
Roane Hunter 21:38
Yeah. Yeah, we did-- we did talk about the spiritual escape, spiritual bypass?
Ben Derrick 21:45
Helper trauma? We should give ourselves credit. We're very careful. You know, we don't want to throw pastors under the bus. That would not be good.
Roane Hunter 21:52
Oh, okay. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 21:53
We don't. I'm encouraging you on mic.
Roane Hunter 21:55
Thank you. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 21:56
But when we don't -- I think the base of the matter, the crux of the matter, though, is when we're not receiving help in the way that we think we should be, it's very hard to trust that the person across from us knows what they're doing when it doesn't feel right. But this idea of doing the work, even though it does feel crummy, it's called work. You know, it isn't like, do your play, it is do your work. And work takes commitment. It takes discipline, it takes being submissive to a guide, it takes that work enlightening you and leading to more work. You know, the interesting thing we haven't talked about yet is the men that I see, women that I see that have done their work, it always leads to more work. The work is never done, right?
Roane Hunter 22:42
Yeah. Yeah, it's a growing awareness. And if I'm in growth mode, I'm going to be becoming aware of the different things in my life and the motives behind the behaviors. And I mean, that, that that's the beauty of the journey, because we're actually growing into whole human beings. That's the goal. And the goal is wholeness and maturity. And that's what we're after. I think it was Phil Stutz, Jonah Hill's therapist, the documentary, which is excellent, by the way. He talks about the three realities of life or three things in life that are guaranteed: pain, uncertainty, and work. I mean, that that's what we got.
What a depressing list.
Yeah, it definitely, it sucks. But that is life. Right? Part of what we have to do is is the idea of acceptance, right? The Serenity Prayer, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. I mean, it's acceptance. Yeah. And when we just accept that pain, uncertainty and work are part of life, we're probably not going to try to avoid it like we do, and stay in a terrible place. And the idea of work, I believe, you know, that you tie that into the fall. You know, we get literal, we've been in the curse. From Genesis, you know, you will labor and you will toil. I mean, we're not we're not agrarian farmers much anymore. There are some, Glad you're listening.
Ben Derrick 24:21
Yeah. Thank God you're there.
Roane Hunter 24:23
I used to be. I grew up doing that. But, but that's not what's going on today. And it's the idea of work. It's like they were in this place where it was effortless. Right? In the Garden of Eden, it was perfect. It was ideal. And then the fall happens and now they've got to exert effort. And it's like anything in your life that you want to be good. You're gonna have to work at it. It takes effort. We all know that instinctively. You want to get in shape. If you want to have a better golf game, you want to lose weight. I mean, we just we know, if you want to succeed in your career, it's going to take work. And this work is no different. It takes time, effort, energy, and mucus and money.
Ben Derrick 25:19
All of those things.
Roane Hunter 25:20
100%. It's part of it.
Ben Derrick 25:22
So I think as we're talking about work, this is just really incredible the way this conversation has turned, and bringing in our biblical worldview, you know, we don't want to talk about this for the rest of the episode. But it is a misunderstanding that work was a result of sin entering the world. That, you know, we didn't work before, we were just laying around enjoying creation. Not actually how the Bible reads, which is pretty interesting. And I love to talk to men, especially, about this, who are passive, passivity runs deep within the heart of a man. Unfortunately, I hate that about us, but it's true. So we have this conversation about work and I'm like, hey, you know that God created man outside of the garden, and then He put him in the garden. And the reason He put him in the garden, the words are in the Bible there to work it and to keep it. So we were given responsibility. I think, I think a lot of the reason why we get the blank stares across the table from individuals is we have been trained, especially in the West, to see work as a curse, and to try to get out of work as quickly as possible, or to make our work make the most profit in the shortest amount of time. And that just runs so contra to the emotional work that we're talking about today.
Roane Hunter 26:36
Oh, yeah. And, and I think it's just the idea. You know, I think before the fall, the work was effortless, because it was -- there was, I mean, it was enjoyable, it was it was life giving, it was not, you know, going and punching the clock, you know, having the sales manager breathing down your throat, trying to make your quota. I mean, all of those things, you know, certainly came into play. But I liken it to, I mean, where I am today and what I do in my work, I don't feel like I work. I mean, and I'm fortunate, I know a lot of people, you know, they don't have that experience. And I didn't for a long time. You know, I was toiling out there in the sun, in the corporate salt mines. And, but now it's like, Man, I think I kind of get the idea of like, man, that work is actually a good thing. And I often say you know, the Bible actually started -- it starts in Genesis one. We don't spend a lot of time there.
Ben Derrick 27:44
Yeah, it's largely misunderstood. In knowing your story, though, it -- correct me if this is a wrong way to say this, but it was your work, your commitment to the work when all hell was breaking loose in your life. It had been there for a long time, but just not disclosed.
Roane Hunter 28:01
Oh yeah.
Ben Derrick 28:01
All hell was breaking loose, and you committed to doing your work, which led to eventually your work, which feels full of purpose and full of joy, and full of impact. And a lot of people, they don't feel like they're in that spot, which we can certainly appreciate. But you didn't get there with an easy glide path. It was a hard road.
Roane Hunter 28:23
Oh yeah, you know, I'm a slow learner. It took me only about 25 years to find my calling, my career. But I was on that path. And, you know, the path really began when I got into recovery from my sexual addiction. And, and I began to do my work. And, you know, just from a practical standpoint, it, you know, my work was, I started meeting with with a counselor, Christian counselor who I grew to love dearly. He became a father figure, mentor, guide, counselor. I always say I don't -- just pick a term it doesn't matter, right. But man, he was-- had such an impact in my life. And so I was meeting with him weekly. Eva and I were - it'd be hard pressed to call it couples counseling, because she was not much into that for the first two years after I admitted everything. It was just a lot of betrayal trauma and a lot of anger. And so I -- that did not prevent me from doing what I needed to do. And so I was meeting with my counselor once a week. He had a therapy group that I was a part of. I found a good support and recovery ministry. It was one of the first - actually well probably the first Christ centered recovery and support groups in the country, way before Celebrate Recovery. This was in 1990. And so I was you know, so now I've got my support group, I'm going to counseling once a week, I'm going to therapy group. And then on top of that I'm a reader, I'm reading everything I can find. There wasn't a whole lot back then, there was very little, but I'm digging in. Because I wanted freedom, I wanted recovery. And I think all of us when we're serious about the process, and we engage in it, and we want change, we also have to kind of remember the-- from 12-step world, the idea of like, easy does it. Because you didn't get here overnight, it's going to take time, but man, you know, we're so desperate to change it, we're so desperate for healing. And usually the house is on fire, or your ass is on fire, that's for sure. That's what it feels like. And you just man, you're, you're trying to do everything and anything you can. But at the same time, boy, that'll that that can burn you out. And so it's just the idea of balance. But I think early on digging in and even going to meetings, I mean, today, good grief. You can find meetings online, every hour of the day, for everything from sexual addiction to alcoholism. I mean, just, man, it's, it's out there, we're fortunate. And so it, it's like doing your work is engaging in the process, and not being passive. One of the things that I say often that just frustrates me to no end is, you know, the the man, the husband, they come in as a couple and I always ask like, how did you guys find us? And there's a unicorn out there. I know, I'm gonna get the answer one day where the guy's gonna say, Man, I got online, I was looking, you know, all hell's broken loose. I admitted my porn problem. And now I'm just trying to find help. And I found you guys. And that's not the case. No, the wife is the one that has dug in. And she's finding the counselor, and she's starting to read the books. And but that's that passivity that you mentioned earlier. We're the ones that created the hell. And now she's the one that's like, beginning to try to try to put the fire out.
Ben Derrick 32:42
Often that is the case, unfortunately, and we don't want to stereotype and say --
Roane Hunter 32:45
No, no, there's exceptions.
Ben Derrick 32:47
Yeah, yeah. But as a general rule, and we would say, I think it's important to put out there too, we're tougher on men in this process.
Roane Hunter 32:55
Oh, 100%.
Ben Derrick 32:56
I'm going to be more tough on you, dude. When we start saying that there's trouble.
Roane Hunter 33:01
Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 33:02
Dude.
Roane Hunter 33:02
Dude. That word is kind of like another word that I think that can be used in a lot of different ways.
Ben Derrick 33:09
Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think we're painting the picture here, that the work also, I don't want to be subtle about this, doing the work doesn't mean dragging tail into a counselor's parking lot, sitting on a couch with your arms crossed, and just showing up consistently for one hour a week over the course of 10 weeks. That doesn't mean you've done your work. That doesn't mean you can look at your spouse and say, Well, I'm doing what they're asking me to do. I'm showing up here.
Roane Hunter 33:38
Yeah. I went to counseling two times. Come on.
Ben Derrick 33:41
Like, well, when did these problems really emerge in your marriage? Oh, two weeks in? Well, how long you been married? 14 years. Okay, well, pardon us for not being able to solve that in 90 minutes. Right. So doing work means committing to this is a word that we use a lot in our practices, committing to the process, trust the process, you are not the first person to go through sexual brokenness or dysfunction inside of your marriage that has completely destroyed trust in the most important relationship in your life.
Roane Hunter 34:15
Absolutely. And I think, you know, even when talking about doing your work, and you're going to counseling, you know, in some ways, everybody's individual work is different, right? Because you begin to uncover that, you know, Mom was codependent and dad was kind of a bull and, and the effects and how that played out or you grew up in this kind of hyper religious, rigid system, and you just thought it was a perfect childhood, went to church every time the doors were open. But then as you begin to uncover it, it's like, boy, there was just a lot of stuff that was masked over. The Bible bandaid. And then you kind of begin to see that there was dysfunction in whatever situation. And so then you began to do work on your codependency, or you, you know, I mean, if you're dealing with addiction, obviously the number one piece of work is you got to get sober,
Ben Derrick 35:20
Stop the behavior.
Roane Hunter 35:21
That's got to happen because short of sobriety, there is no recovery. And so just, you know, that's got to be the first focus and doing the work around just okay, I've got to get to sobriety. Well, I need to put filters on all my devices, I need to get accountability guys. I need to get in a group. I mean, there's, there's practical things in each one of these different areas of what we would call, you got to do your work. And and you need to be asking the counselor, you know, what, what is that? What does that mean? What does it look like? And I think if, if they're any good, they're gonna have a plan, they're gonna have a process, they're gonna have a roadmap. It's like our book, you know, The Sex, God and the Chaos of Betrayal, the Couple's Roadmap of Hope and Healing. I mean, it's, you've got to have a plan, and you got to trust the process. If you work the plan, you've got a chance. If you don't, then, yeah, probably not much is gonna happen.
Ben Derrick 36:31
It's no surprise to us. No, you may disappear for a while. But you're you'll be back. Yeah. And the truth is for us on our side of the appointment, that's heartbreaking. Oh, it totally. Because had you done the work when it was presented to you the first time, you would have mitigated a lot of this future damage?
Roane Hunter 36:49
Oh, yeah. And I think the it's, it's like, doing the work is, is not just coming and sitting in the counselor's office for an hour a week. Right? I tell people, that's probably the least effective part of the process. Well, no, no, it's the most important. Yes. But but when you think about it, you know that that's one hour, one hour out of the week. And hopefully, you know, we're going to be giving you something to work on, something to focus on. And, you know, you need to go do the homework assignments. We -- Eva and I are big on like, man, we're very directive, especially when it's couples in crisis. I mean, when the plane is on, like the engine, you've lost both engines and you're going down, you don't want somebody up there, like, you know, let us help you with some conflict resolution skills. And so you we are very directive because everybody's in crisis. I mean, both people in the relationship and both are highly, highly emotionally dysregulated. He's got discovery trauma, because he's, the stuff that you're going to take to your grave somehow has come out. I call it discovery trauma. And then she's now got betrayal trauma. And man, we are spinning plates.
Ben Derrick 38:23
Spininng, yeah. So let's talk this. Let's take a little turn here in the episode and talk about something else that we've seen when the word work gets weaponized by the family, or the other person that is in, you know, the therapeutic situation. It often sounds like they -- he or she, they're just not doing their work. I'm doing my work. They're not doing their work. How do you handle that?
Roane Hunter 38:49
Oh gosh. It is one of those, I mean, I, we hear that very often. That's why I'm laughing actually out loud. I had somebody tell me that today about about their spouse and
Ben Derrick 39:01
imagine that
Roane Hunter 39:02
I know, and it's like, you know, in some cases, they may not be right and certainly we want to kind of push into that, lean into that. But a lot of times they're doing about everything they can do, right. And oftentimes, and again, I just work with the men, Eva's working with the wives. And I'm like, dude, all you can do is all you can do. I mean, you're going to like two groups a week you're going to get counseling once a week, you're in a therapy group, you're -- mean, everything that is being asked of you to do by the one that is kind of directing the process as a counselor-- Sounds like control freak, but it's like the same things that we've learned and like, okay, they're, they're doing everything that they can. And sometimes it really is more about boundaries of Um, and, you know, your own codependency and in kind of getting frustrated with your, I'll just use the wife as example. With her because she's in safety seeking behavior mode. And all she wants she's she's wanting she doesn't feel safe she doesn't feel secure obviously that's the betrayal trauma. And so yes, she wants you to be in a group, you know, 24/7 or, you know, seeing your counselor, you know, eight times a week or, and I mean, it that's not realistic. But you got to see it as where she's at and where she's coming from. And then you got to engage in your in your consistent action over time, that's actually going to build the safety and security, I always say our job on the man side of the fence is to create safety for our wives. And if we're doing that, she will begin to trust but safety and security are the foundational building blocks of trust. And when they see you doing activities and things, it is it's it's going to create safety.
Ben Derrick 41:16
Yeah, I find that that phrase is usually camouflage for their behavior isn't changing as fast as I would like. That's what I really mean, though. I've watched enough Tic Toc to be able to say in this room, They're not doing their work.
Roane Hunter 41:32
Yeah, Tic Toc therapy.
Ben Derrick 41:33
They haven't read, you know, four pages of this book that I gave them, or they haven't listened to the seven podcasts, I sent their directions, because it is interesting, when you have the betrayed partner, they're in this hyper vigilant state, they're learning and trying to process as much as they possibly can, while at the same time extremely worried that if they're not in the room with the clinician, or at a men's group, they're probably looking at porn or with the affair partner. They just, they just can't trust unless I can verify with Life 360 and six other witnesses that my partner was at this location, I cannot settle myself down. So there's just there's a lot of danger and weaponizing that word work. And what we find is that it really demoralizes the person who probably is doing a lion's share of what they've been asked to do. It just hasn't taken its effect yet. Because as you mentioned already in this episode, work takes time.
Roane Hunter 42:27
Yep. And if our core message is somehow the core wounding the toxic shame message, I mean, so many men, it's like this idea that, you know, I'm not enough, I'm inadequate. And and then I'm getting this overdose of like, you're just not doing enough. Well, now I'm tapping into the old core wound. And guess what, how do we deal with the core wound? What was the go to? It's one of the things that we have to begin to try to do is help the partner understand that when you're doing that, it's not helpful.
Ben Derrick 43:08
To you, it's not helpful to you.
Roane Hunter 43:10
Yeah, for her say.
Ben Derrick 43:12
The realization, the way I'm participating in this process is actually driving my partner 1000 miles an hour back to that costly coping mechanism. So we can acknowledge it is a heavy lift for the betrayed partner.
Roane Hunter 43:25
Yeah, And just, you know, the, certainly the caveat in there is like, in no way, shape, or form, are we blaming the other person. I mean, I always say, you know, I was pre programmed out of the gate. I mean, I was, it wouldn't matter who I was married to. And that's true for every guy that I've worked with. It's never about that. I mean, I was pre programmed, I was gonna do what I did regardless. And so it's never about the other person. It's not about the wife. It's not about the partner at all. However, we do have to look at the contribution in the dynamics of the relationship, I always say that whatever was there before, right, the dysfunction, the conflict, whatever was there. It after discovery, it is only magnified and amplified that which was already there
Ben Derrick 44:20
So important to understand. Yeah, it is it isn't that your cause? But both people are setting conditions to produce a lot of the stuff that's happened. And I think we can get to this in future episodes, but that even plays into the initial attraction and choosing a partner. Why did I choose this person? Oh, yeah, that's a troubling thing for people to have to work through after they've been married for a decade. To ask that question, like, What was this about? I know we've talked about that on other podcasts, even other episodes, but it's important for us to acknowledge at this point in the conversation, I think, that there's a way to actually support the other person's work that feels -- and that's a really important word here today -- feels counterintuitive. Oh, yeah. Feels like they're not doing the right thing. So maybe we should shed a little light on that. If we have some of our listeners like, Well, look, I really do want to help, I really do want to be a contributor to the health of this marriage that's just driving me crazy in the state that it's in. If they were sitting here behind mic and ask what what can we do? What can I do? What would you tell them?
Roane Hunter 45:28
Well, you know, one of the things we often tell them is like, when you are triggered, when when you are activated, the best thing you can do is to ask for reassurance. And that's so important. And there's ways to do that, right? We we talked about just the the we call it FTD kind of the, you know, bouquet of flowers as a way to remember it. But it's just simply, you know, what I feel when when I see this, when I hear you say this, I feel whatever it is, and then what I think or the best phrase is the story in my head is this. And my desire is I just really need some reassurance. I don't know of a man that I've ever sat with, if they were approached that way, that they would not lean into that and offer reassurance. Now I'm talking about a man in recovery, a man that's doing his work.
Ben Derrick 46:30
Right. Not a guy seven beers in.
Roane Hunter 46:33
No, no, no, not that guy. But, but you're gonna lean into that, and it's kind of coaching the partner, what you really need is reassurance and when you're going into accusatory mode, or shaming mode, or you're not doing your work mode, it's counterproductive, because what you're really after is safety. In order to gain safety, you need lots of reassurance.
Ben Derrick 47:03
That way we can bring the question in, what do you want? So important to be able to ask back to the partner, when we see that activity going on, that conversation kicking up, for it to be okay to ask inside the relationship. I'm hearing you. What is it that you want? Yeah. And to be able to speak that I want some reassurance that you're committed to getting better. Ok, I can give you that. I'm not saying it's going to change by the time this day is over. But I'm committed to the work. And even being comfortable having that conversation feels a little awkward.
Roane Hunter 47:39
Well, it's, you know, the idea is just healthy people ask for what they want and what they need. And oftentimes, and, you know, this was the case with Eva, she's talked about it, I think, on the podcast even. But like she she had a hard time going to vulnerability, right. And part of that is what she grew up in, alcoholic home and just that dysfunction. And you know, you can't have wants and needs. And so, you know, the way that that she would do that it would be she's -- you know, Ben knows her, some of you out there have met her, she's a strong woman. And so the, like, vulnerability for her, even as a woman, you know, think it's hard for us men. But vulnerability was not a -- that wasn't a great value. Right?
Ben Derrick 48:32
Wasn't encouraged.
Roane Hunter 48:32
Yeah. And I think, you know, the best definition of weakness because this was kind of the way in what I grew up in. It's like, you know, it was viewed as weak to be vulnerable. And I believe, kind of my definition of weakness is a radical opposition to neediness. I will not be needy, by God. Because my core message growing up was I'm on my own. I'm alone. You got to do it yourself. Yeah, yeah. So man, it to ask for help to ask for what you needed. Well, first of all, you couldn't even have any needs, but certainly you couldn't ask for help to try to get those needs met. Because that was weakness, and so I was radically opposed to weakness.
Ben Derrick 49:22
The way that you're articulating that right now is an indicator that you've done your work. And that's what you're challenging other people to do. That's what we're challenging our listeners to do. We acknowledge it's messy. It's uncomfortable. It's frightening. It feels like you're going to be demonized if you admit one thing or another, or you're judging other people for the effects they've had on your life. We understand all of that. But we also know we talk about we found bread, we talk about that a lot. We also know that that was our journey and without that part of the process, we would not be the people that we are today and we certainly wouldn't be sitting behind microphones trying to help other people find that way.
Roane Hunter 50:04
Amen. I think you know, it is it is life giving. Even the word blessed that it simply means to add life to. It's like God, our Creator added life to us, obviously. And then he asked us to add life to others and have life added to us by others. And that's the idea of connection. And so this I know for you for me, man, this work that we do, it is life giving. And I mean, the people that we sit with all the men stuff that we do, just boy we're gaining life by just hearing the stories by hearing the the truth by hearing honest men talk about real things. And that's life giving.
Ben Derrick 50:55
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