In this episode, Roane & Ben discuss the arousal template as a framework for understanding sexual desire. The arousal template refers to the unique set of experiences that facilitate sexual desire and response. It is shaped by a combination of biological, psychological, and cultural factors, and varies greatly from person to person. Roane and Ben explore different components of the arousal template, including fantasies, psychological arousal, and contextual factors. Additionally, they discuss ways of understanding one's own arousal template and how self-awareness can help in improving sexual experiences and communication with partners. This episode also digs into common misconceptions about sexual desire and arousal, including the idea that it is solely driven by biological factors or that everyone has the same preferences. Understanding and respecting the unique arousal template of oneself and others can lead to more fulfilling sexual experiences and relationships.
To learn more about the Sex, God, & Chaos team, click the link below:
Looking for help? Book an appointment with LifeWorks Counseling today:
You can purchase your copy of Sex, God, & Chaos here:
Ben Derrick 00:04
Welcome to the Sex, God and Chaos podcast, a conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough, and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in.. You know, one thing I appreciate about this podcast is we're willing to talk about the things that most people are unwilling to talk about.
Roane Hunter 00:34
It is, you know, it's kind of scary, in a way, cuz, you know, we might get canceled or something, but we can't get canceled. How would we get cancelled?
Ben Derrick 00:45
I don't know. I mean, it could happen, I guess.
Roane Hunter 00:47
Yeah, I've been canceled before.
Ben Derrick 00:48
Yeah, I'm Sure. Multiple times.
Roane Hunter 00:51
Legitimate canceled, yeah. I wear it as a badge of honor. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 00:56
Yeah, I think in some ways.
Roane Hunter 00:57
I don't know if I could actually, I probably shouldn't tell that whole -- nah, I won't tell that. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 01:02
Well, why don't we start this way and saying it is an incredible honor and privilege to sit with people who can depend on confidentiality, whether that be at a men's weekend, or in a counseling session, and to hear just the nitty gritty details about how their life is going, or how a couple's life is going, it's one of the parts of this job that I enjoy so much. It just requires so much trust for someone to let down their guard and talk about the things that they most likely haven't talked about with anyone, maybe their entire adult life.
Roane Hunter 01:39
You know, it's like the the inner workings of of human beings. It really is. It's fascinating. And, you know, I think, those of us that are good at it, certainly you -- I think I am -- for the most part, but, you know, we take really kind of this non judgmental stance, to where, like, you know, I mean, I have heard a lot. There's, I don't want to say there's nothing somebody could tell me that somehow I would be shocked. I've heard a lot. I don't think I would. But it's just amazing how, when you can do that, how people really begin to open up. And then the thing that you see is like all the stuff that we've all done in some way, shape or form. You know, there's a reason for every behavior, and everything begins to make sense, in context. And if we can just simply kind of maintain an attitude of acceptance. Yeah, people will begin to open up, but it's rare, where they have the opportunity to do that.
Ben Derrick 02:49
Yeah. And it almost has to begin contractually, you know, this is a contract. And we know the parameters here. But eventually, what's so great is over time, we see that expand out into a person's relational world, outside of just something that's a contract and inside of community, which is why it's so important for us to keep those lanes of community open, where people can build community with like minded people that are willing to be honest about difficult topics, we would say, embarrassing topics, I think, is maybe more accurate descriptor.
Roane Hunter 03:22
You know, it's the shame, you know, up underneath any kind of acting out. If we call it addiction, I don't know pick a name. But you know, there's shame, anger, resentment and control. Those four things are present. And I separate anger and resentment. Because, man, that resentment, especially when we're dealing with like sexual acting out sexual betrayal, there's typically a resentment factor towards the spouse, whether it's a woman acting out, or the man acting out, it doesn't matter. That resentment factor's there. And it is a way that like, Okay, you won't listen to me, you're always controlling, whatever story we've got in our head. The resentment is the driver. That's like, Okay, well, I deserve this. I'll show you. And so it's so much of a passive aggressive form of acting out resentment towards the other. We often call it eroticized rage. That's what it is.
Ben Derrick 04:25
Yeah. Absolutely. That hurt people hurt people, and they will even use sex to do so. Which is a thing that most people don't talk about.
Roane Hunter 04:34
No, no. Hey, nobody's going to talk about that.
Ben Derrick 04:35
Right. Well, I mean, when you look at the title of this podcast, you're like sex? Okay. Yes, please. I don't know, where's this headed? And then you get to God like, well, one of these things is not like the other. The Chaos certainly makes sense when you talk about either one of those topics. So today, what we'd like to do is just slow the pace down a little bit, drill down on something very specific that you and I have seen over and over as we have sat with people, and it is arousal and the arousal template. And people saying to their spouse, I don't know, I'm just not, I don't feel like I'm not in the mood, you know, and all these things that roll out and start to cause a lot of chaos in the relational dynamic. But we'd like to take some time just to describe what is an arousal template? What affects your arousal template? What effects do your arousal template have on a relationship? How to correct those things? If external forces like pornography have affected that arousal template? So we're going to do some pretty intricate work today. A lot of you talking, a lot of us listening.
Roane Hunter 05:38
Yeah, we'll see. You know, it's interesting. I have people-- and you're probably starting to get this too. Even as a pastor, you probably got the question of like, Man, how do you how do you hear people telling you hard things all day? Or something. And, you know, my answer now is, man, you know, it is life giving, when people begin to open up about things they've've never told any other human being. I mean, what a privilege. What an honor. What a sacred space.
Ben Derrick 06:08
Agreed.
Roane Hunter 06:09
It is life giving. I mean, it gives me energy. The thing that sucks my energy is is sitting with people that are not willing to do that, where they're very surfacey where they don't talk about anything. And it's like, a "Fakebook" life. Man that's draining.
Ben Derrick 06:32
Yeah, it is.
Roane Hunter 06:33
I just - I can't. I honestly, I don't it's like , ain't nobody got time for that. It just sucks the life out of me.
Ben Derrick 06:40
Especially if you've committed to a life of honesty. It represents like this black hole, like this pull back to a former life that almost makes you sick to your stomach. Yeah, man.
Roane Hunter 06:50
Yeah, that's yeah, that's life sucking, not life giving.
Ben Derrick 06:55
So when an individual and/or a couple sit in your office, and they start talking about very specific details about arousal and sex and in their marital life, or in their sexual experience, even as single people. That's one of those things where, like all systems go. So whatever may have been distracting you as a helper is like--
Roane Hunter 07:16
Yeah, I'm in.
Ben Derrick 07:17
-- woah, this is very, very sacred space. So I think this episode is an effort to maybe let people know that's a possibility to sit with someone. And to talk about those things, even as words that I hear a lot are strange, bizarre, broken, weird. Even those things to sit down and talk with someone and to feel that level of acceptance can be very healing.
Roane Hunter 07:40
Oh, yeah. Just, I mean, you know, we always say there's three nuclear landmines in marriage. And those three things are money, sex, and in laws. And, you know, some couples have all three of those landmines in place. Yeah. At one address. Yeah, exactly. Boy, but you know, the sex thing. Eva and I, you know, we often talk about it in the sense, you know, we've got two certifications in sex addiction work. We're also clinical associates with the American Board of Christian Sex Therapists. That's on the what we would call the healthy side of sexuality. So we work on both sides of the spectrum, you know, kind of the, the hard stuff, the difficult stuff in the sexual brokenness arena. And certainly the goal is moving towards healthy sexuality, specifically Christian healthy sexuality. Because I mean, we tell people, like this idea of going to a sex therapist, is a dangerous proposition. That's why we always say we are Christian sex therapists. It's very different. I mean, even the crazy old lady back in the day, you know, Dr. Ruth, was held out as some kind of sex expert or something. I mean, there's been, you know, there's been a bunch of those.
Ben Derrick 09:07
And I can remember thinking as even a middle schooler seeing her thinking this lady?
Roane Hunter 09:13
Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, some of the stuff that she would say, I mean, obviously, it's not coming from where we're coming from. And that is certainly a biblical worldview, a faith based integrated approach with clinical counseling. Because this idea of sex is fraught with peril. And you just look around at our culture today. And we see -- again, kind of -- our podcast titled Sex ,God and Chaos, but we see the chaos that has ensued from kind of this freefall with sex that started in the 60s and the sexual revolution. It goes back to even prior to that Sigmund Freud, and then Dr. Alfred Kinsey, and kind of this --
Ben Derrick 09:58
-- the birth of the porn industry in America,.
Roane Hunter 10:02
all of it, that there's like Jupiter aligned with Mars. And you know, at this point, we're in the middle of the greatest social experiment ever unleashed on humankind, with just internet pornography, and what what's happening because of that, and where we are. And I mean, it is changing sexual norms, it's changing everything. But you know, it started really back with, you know, Freud came along, and all these others along the way that have paved the way for just ultimate chaos in in a society that's disconnected, devoid of the Divine Creator. And anything outside of the created order is always problematic.
Ben Derrick 10:51
So let's talk about this for a second, let's just pause here, because I can tell our listeners like, whoa, this feels like a different episode. So as we're talking about pornography, the prevalence of pornography, we're talking about arousal templates, these are real things that are affecting real people in real relationships, in one of the partners is consuming copious amounts of pornography, and finds themself in a real life sexual situation with their partner, their spouse, and is unable to be aroused enough to actually engage in sex. And attempts to solve that by going to a GP and getting a drug. Right? And we even now have porn induced erectile dysfunction is a real thing. Yeah, that's the thing that's happening. So just in an effort to kind of normalize the complexity of these problems, and the origination point that you're talking about, with Hugh Hefner, and rolling back to the ideas that lead to that. It's a huge machine, a machine that makes an incredible amount of money worldwide, especially in the United States, and especially inside of, I think we could say Christian communities in the United States based on Barna's research. So these are things that are affecting people at a very deep level that we need to bring into the light so that we can help couples individuals move past this arousal template problem that was most likely introduced into their story at a very young age.
Roane Hunter 12:20
Yeah, that's the heartbreaking part. It's, you know, every guy that I've ever worked with, me included, has said, man, if I could go back, you know, knowing what I know today, when I was that eight year old nine year old little boy that that came with -- found the pornography, I would have been like Joseph running out of the room with Potiphar's wife. I would have run for my life.
Ben Derrick 12:43
Even to prison. Anywhere but here.
Roane Hunter 12:46
Whatever, man, get me out of here. Right. Yeah. Because you know, what we, what we all figured out is just the long term, kind of the destructive effects of this habit that was normalized. And, you know, we got sold this snake oil that like, well, it's no big deal, it doesn't harm anybody. And in your, you know, Dad's doing it, whatever, everybody's doing it. And then we wind up and it affected our thinking. It affected our view of women, it affected our self esteem, there's so much of how it plays out. And now, you know, research is coming out, this is no longer just a moral issue. Now, it's a research based scientific fact, that it's really a public health crisis. That's where we are today. And there's, there's this, it's not getting any better. And so all of this stuff, and then how it contributes into the distorted thinking of how sex is supposed to be in a committed long term married relationship. Well, that's where we see a lot of problems because I've got this distorted view. And then you get into your -- gosh, the mechanics and the positions and, you know, the couples want to like, ask about this and that and, you know, I don't think we're a PG rated podcast. But one of the things you know, the things come up and couples will ask about, they'll ask about anal sex. Oral sex, yeah, oral sex, all the different stuff. And, you know, we we have conversations about that. And like anal sex, you know, where Eva and I come down with that. There are some even Christian counselors that talk about, well, if it's, you know, both if it's agreeable, consensual and mutual, then anything goes. Well, we just call BS on that. Because you know, that particular act is is it just it straight out of porn, and it's not natural. It's not, we always say it needs to be natural and organic. And so you think about that. The wife can't naturally perform anal sex on the husband. Oral sex is different. Yeah. Yeah. And again, that's just I don't, you know, gosh, we'll get cover your children's ears. How many children are listening to a podcast called Sex, God and --
Ben Derrick 15:23
Let's hope if we are being played in the carpool line, it's before the children are picked up. Right? That's, that's the goal. But that's you taking the dive into those sorts of conversations that are really important that operate in the shadows, and can cause an incredible amount of pain and confusion inside a relationship.
Roane Hunter 15:41
Yeah, even even frequency around sex. You know, the, the, the argument about frequency is just, I mean, that is very normal. And, you know, it's, it's sometimes I mean, it's not just always the man that wants more sex, we've seen it, where the role is reversed. You know, it's kind of a myth that, you know, men have this, you know, a man's sexual drive, his libido is always higher than the the wife. Well, that's not true. Sometimes the wife has a higher sex drive, that doesn't make her I won't go into the names that women get called. Yeah, she just she has a higher sex drive. That just anything abnormal is not bad. The man has a lower sex drive. It's okay. But that's a common myth. There's so many of those, you know, one of the common myths is that men just want sex, women, they just want to talk. Well, that's not true, either. There are women that actually like and enjoy sex with their husbands. That's very healthy, right? But the norm is, you know, it's kind of like the, the women's Bible study group gets together, and the wives are sharing. And the one wife says, gosh, my husband, just, he just wants to have sex all the time. It just drives me crazy. And if a wife that actually likes having sex with her husband, and enjoys that, she hears that, and then all the other women join in, and she suddenly go, Oh, dear, I guess maybe I should like sex with my husband. I mean, peer-- by being influenced by peers, that that happens over a lifespan, if, if we're not aware that like, you know, something, is like, it's like, I'm thinking I'm not okay, because other people that are really not okay are saying things -- Are being loud about not being ok. -- that I take as normal. Or, oh, gosh, something's wrong with me. But, you know, these things play out in so many different ways. And again, you know, we've had lots of experience and lots of training. And it's just one of these areas that we're not afraid to sit and talk with a couple about, because we know it needs to be talked about because it's such an area of strife and contention in a marriage, or at least it can be.
Ben Derrick 18:03
Correct. Yeah, it is impacting the marriage for sure. One way or the other.
Roane Hunter 18:08
Oh yeah. And so often, you know, couples will just - they'll avoid even having a conversation about it. It's one of the things that we tell couples, you know, the key to like, just a healthy, wonderful sex life, it's communication. And actually talking about these things. Like, you know, when you touch me there, that feels really good. I like that. So many couples they don't even know that about the other person.
Ben Derrick 18:36
Isn't that crazy?
Roane Hunter 18:37
It's like they, they make sure all the lights are off. Close the door. Don't say anything. And evidently they have sex, because they got some kids. Unless, unless there's a lot of little Jesus's walking around. Maybe they were all immaculately conceived. I don't know. But it's like how did these kids get here?
Ben Derrick 18:57
Oh my goodness. Yeah. Through all this dysfunction.
Roane Hunter 19:00
Well, you know, we the most couples have just kind of the sexual dance. You throw the hint out, the hint gets accepted or not accepted, then we're rejected. But really what it is it's we're still operating around sex as adolescent teenage girls and boys. We haven't grown up we've not matured because we don't know how. I mean, growing up most people what you get is you know, especially in Christian you know sex is bad. It's dirty. Save it for the person you love and marry. Oh I would love that.
Ben Derrick 19:37
And don't ever talk about it afterwards.
Roane Hunter 19:40
Okay, the person I love the most I'm gonna spend my life with okay it's bad and dirty so I need to save it for them. Okay, I got I got it.
Ben Derrick 19:48
Got it. Yeah.
Roane Hunter 19:49
What the crap.
Ben Derrick 19:50
Well, and that's really a huge message. Yeah, that is rampant in our culture today.
Roane Hunter 19:57
Absolutely. Yeah, because it creates even this mindset, that somehow it's bad and it's dirty. And so you're automatically, it's like you've got kudzu starting to grow around the barn. And eventually, shame is the kudzu and it just covers the barn. And there's typically so much shame around our sex around, sexuality on both sides of the fence, the husband and the wife, because they've never really looked at it. They've never talked about it. And nobody's ever talked about it with them. So they just we come up with ideas in our head based on, you know, Hollywood romance movies, and the music that we hear, the TV shows that we watch that just -- think about that for just a minute. Right?
Ben Derrick 20:42
Oh man. Yeah, I've got a -- at home, I've got a 15 and a 12 year old. And we're watching a lot of spy movies these days, which is awesome. Yeah, we traded the cartoons for James Bond, which was great. But one thing that we do during these movies is that when we get to the sex scene, there's always one. I pause it and I say, how many days ago did these people meet? It's, it's, you know, two days ago, one day ago, yeah, five minutes ago. Yeah. And I'm sure to point out to my son's like, that's not actually how that works. This is Hollywood, right? And this is gonna look sensational over the next couple of minutes. These people don't even know each other. Trust me. That's not how this works, right. So we're, we're starting to have these conversations. But we talked about this word a lot on this podcast, silence. And growing up in my home, my parents are beautiful people. But this is one of the things we just didn't talk about. I don't know why I still don't know why. But it was very silent in our home, growing up, and that did some things that sent me down some trails to try to figure out information. And they were not very reputable sources, right. Like my friend Rick, who's 12, he's not really the source. Yeah, yeah, you know, the friend Rick is usually not gonna be helpful. Tell me how sex works, right. But what happens is, over time we develop in each of us, I think this is what's most important about what you're saying is that we have these individual ideas, about sex about what arouses us, sometimes those things are influenced by very negative things. And then we get involved with a marriage where we just feel like we can't talk about those things. And tragically, we have people participating in their relationships, sexually in positions and being touched in ways that they don't actually enjoy. But they feel like they can't be vocal about that. And then we have this reduced desire to engage in that activity altogether. Because it includes those things. And if we were able to have a very honest conversation about what arouses us, then a lot of those things would dissipate. Right? That's how that works, correct?
Roane Hunter 23:00
Oh, yeah. Yep. You know, it's just, I mean, we sit with so many couples in, you know, the hardest the thing to work with, I think, or at least one of them is, is a guy that is - I'll term it this way, even though I don't like the term sex addict, but he's, he's a full blown sex addict within the marriage. He's not acting outside of the marriage. But I mean, he is absolutely addicted, in every sense of the word to sex in his marriage with his wife. And it's so hard, getting a guy to see that. And oftentimes, you know, that's the good Christian couple. And she is just, she's, she's worn out, she's tired. She knows she's being used. And she's trying to speak into it. And of course, he's using the, the good ol you know, taking some scripture out of context, and all of that. And man, that that is one of the that's one of the hardest scenarios in this work that we do.
Ben Derrick 24:08
Incredibly pervasive. Yeah, the I know, this may be a risky term here. But it's one that I've used as connected with couples. The male is using often a vaginal validation method. Yeah, you know, that's how I feel validated as a man it's your job to validate me that way as a man.
Roane Hunter 24:28
Oh, yeah, we we will sometimes we use term vaginal masturbation.
Ben Derrick 24:33
zero connection, it's all physical. Yeah, who wouldn't?
Roane Hunter 24:34
Yeah. I mean, and it makes sense. She should be. And so, you know it, these things have to be talked about in certainly in the right place and right time. And it, but we just see so often, you know, and then the husband is asking for, you know, certain acts to be performed. And the wife may not be comfortable with that, because we say everything in a healthy marriage is mutual. And that's true when it comes to the sexual part of the relationship. Mutuality is the key to a healthy, healthy marriage. And so those are things that have to be talked about, in you know, oftentimes the wife, she may be dealing with body image issues, and she, you know, the only way she can have sex, the lights are off, and the husband, you know, men are visual, and he loves her body, but in her head, she thinks she's overweight. And so, you know, that's a problem, right? Because now you've got two people, that that are like, you know, this wonderful gift that God gives us of sex inside the confines of marriage, the way it's designed to be. And yet, now we've got all this strife, there's conflict around it. And that's why we believe it's one of those areas of the relationship that has to be dealt with and talked about, because boy, it will kill a relationship. Yeah, it's just a release. It's nothing more and he is simply trying to deal with his own anxiety, trying to reduce his emotional distress by going to acting out and it is full blown acting out. Because sex devoid of emotional connection, it's not intimacy, it's not true intimacy, and it will certainly do a number on a marriage. And that's why these things are so important to talk about. Because over the long term a wife that's being used in that way, she's going to wind up being a pretty angry resentful woman.
Ben Derrick 26:50
No doubt about it. So my follow up question to that is, how do you talk about it? How do you talk about this? Maybe triggering your spouse beyond belief, or go into a place of shame that you're bringing bringing it up? Yeah, man, I can imagine husband or wife talking about this particular part of sex. It's just not fun for me. Yeah. fulfilling for me. Oh, yeah, that conversation feels like you would say it and then duck under the table. So we need to, I think, talk about what it looks like for that conversation to happen in a healthy way.
Roane Hunter 27:27
Yeah. You know, in our work with couples, we take, it doesn't matter what the couple's coming to see us for, sexual brokenness or not, where we always start is a series of questions. We just call it owning your story. And it goes back is questions about mom and dad. And then questions about money, what you saw growing up, questions about God, how was God modeled what was it like, in the family rules, family roles, and then there's a whole big section on sex and sexuality, like childhood years, growing up. Because that's where the stuff has gotten formed. Because of even either the misinformation, the bad information, the terrible information, the destructive information, or the silence. I got nothing, nothing. But man, we're coming up with a story about it in our head. And so the questions are just simply designed to get each individual in the coupleship, to begin to examine that part of their life. And so often they never have, and they don't really understand, you know, why, you know, I can only make love with the lights off, and the sheets pulled up and all of those types of things. There's always reasons for every behavior. And then we get into, over time, we talk about arousal template, because, again, sometimes that gets formed in a, it's, it's pretty amazing how something that would seem fairly benign can actually become part of an arousal template. And every individual has one. The arousal template. And I'll just, you know, an easy example. This was when I was doing groups living in Atlanta. There was a guy there and he had a sandal fetish. That, you know, when you say that, it sounds like oh, wow, that just creepy guy, right. But it was like, you know, women and open toed sandals was part of his arousal template. Okay. Okay, as he talked about that in group how that became, like part of his arousal template. I can't remember how old he was. It's been years ago. But you know, he would do something wrong growing up little boy. And mom would like take off her sandals or sandal and she would you know, he would pull down his pants and she would spank him with the sandal. And I think this continued, you know, for way too long. But you know, probably seven, eight years old, you know, at that age, we don't need to be spanking our children with sandals or shoes. Yeah. But so him pulling his pants down, even when you're spanking your child and pulling down their pants. That's a humiliating act. And there's shame associated with that. It's something we need to think about. Because it can certainly, boy that can morph into something that it's not good in the long run. And so this shameful, humiliating act coupled with the open toed or with the sandal, boy that got linked in his arousal template, as far as the thing that would excite him, because that's how this stuff works. I think, you know, the more, the more arousing an act, the more shameful an act -- it's like, when you think about in terms of dopamine rush, something that's more taboo or shameful, creates a lot more excitement and dopamine chemicals going off in our brain. So it's almost like the more shame, the higher the arousal. And so this shaming act coupled with nakedness, sexuality, and sandals, boom. So that was part of his, I mean, a big part of his arousal template. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 31:46
Which is problematic because they're sandals everywhere.
Roane Hunter 31:49
Yeah. I mean, Kroger and springtime.
Ben Derrick 31:53
Yeah, exactly. What do you do? What do you do? That's pretty intricate work, though. Being able to connect all those dots, let them connect them. And it's probably not going to be done, you know, in the living room or over dinner.
Roane Hunter 32:08
Yeah. Yeah. Probably in order to really, you know, figure out arousal template, you know, that's work that's, I think, done with a therapist that knows how to do the work. And just, you know, a lot of it's connecting the dots. Because, I mean, you know, again, when you just look at that, I mean, you know, when you hear about it go oh, that sounds weird. However, when you think about it, go, Dang, that makes a lot of sense.
Ben Derrick 32:34
Yeah, I think that's the phrase I was thinking when you were talking earlier. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it makes that makes a lot of sense. Right. Yeah. So would you recommend couples sitting down and asking the question of each other some version of, you know, what, what is your experience of sex with me? And being open to the answer to that question.
Roane Hunter 32:58
Yeah, I think it's an important question. You know, part of our problem is, we've got to get over our egos when it comes to sex. Especially as men.
Ben Derrick 33:07
I'm out. Love my ego.
Roane Hunter 33:08
Yeah. But I think that's an important aspect. Because, you know, I, you know, I want to be a great lover, in every sense of the word. Like Jesus, right. I mean, Jesus was a great lover. And some people are gonna go, he is saying that Jesus was having sex.
Ben Derrick 33:27
Oh, I know. I could hear it in my mind.
Roane Hunter 33:28
Yeah, the Baptists are going to be writing you letters, not me. Yeah. But, but it's like, Now Jesus was a great lover. And I think, you know, certainly the gift of marriage, the sexual part of the relationship is part of what it means being a great lover. And I'm talking I'm not talking about mechanics, and performance and anything like that. I'm just simply talking about loving someone well, which is a challenge for all of us as human beings, I believe. Certainly, it is for me, working on it working on it. But it's just the idea of like, I want to be able to emotionally connect with the person that I'm most intimate with in my life. I want to be having conversations with that person about every aspect of my life. And certainly, the sexual part of the relationship is one where we should be having honest conversations. And, you know, getting feedback around that from the person that we're like doing that with is probably a good idea. Yeah. But if we've got a fragile ego when it comes to this, then chances are I'm going to be hurt. I'm going to be rejected. I'm going into my feels and all of that.
Ben Derrick 34:44
Right. I can tell you're talking about the man right now. I can see it all over you.
Roane Hunter 34:48
If men had a superpower. This is I believe, a men -- man's superpower. You know what it would be? It would be pouting and sulking, going in the corner sucking my thumb.
Ben Derrick 35:01
You can do that for years.
Roane Hunter 35:02
Oh, gosh. You know, it works so great. There's so much that happens when we do that.
Ben Derrick 35:07
But we keep trying. Yeah. So I think being able to transition the conversation, hypothetically, as people are rolling through this, not starting to talk about how can we mutually orgasm, which is like, oh, that's the main goal.
Roane Hunter 35:21
Oh, there's another myth.
Ben Derrick 35:22
Yeah. Yeah. What we're trying to do is mutually connect. Yeah. And to get to a place inside of your relationship where you can say, if there's something going on, that I'm doing, or that we're doing that's keeping you from being able to connect, let's figure out how to get that out of the way.
Roane Hunter 35:40
Exactly. Right. It is it I mean, again, it boils down to just communication, non judgmental communication to where we can talk about whatever we need to talk about. You know, that that, like mutual orgasm, it is amazing. The thinking around like, somehow that is the goal in lovemaking in the coupleship -- I love it when Eva, looks at looks at the wife looks at the husband and she says, you know, your orgasm is your responsibility. Not the other person's.
Ben Derrick 36:18
Oh man that is like a therapist mic drop right there.
Roane Hunter 36:22
It is right. Yeah. And I think a lot of guys hear that and go, Oh, well. Yeah, exactly. I could go masturbate. Yeah, yeah, no, that's not what she's saying. She's talking about in the relationship together. You know, we don't have to achieve orgasm. And part of it is like it, you know, it's not uncommon, where, you know, orgasm, women can have difficulties achieving orgasm. However, it's one of those things that can be worked with. And usually what we see there is a husband that's like, just doesn't know how to do emotional connection, because so much of female arousal is that. And if she doesn't feel safe, and secure in the relationship, she's probably going to have some anxiety around the lovemaking. Right. So again, it's like, everything begins to make sense when you talk this out. And so he's got work to do, you know, outside of -- has nothing to do with what's going on in the bedroom. It has everything to do with what's going on every day. And how he's loving her well.
Ben Derrick 37:36
Yeah. Or not.
Roane Hunter 37:37
Or not. Absolutely.
Ben Derrick 37:39
So that can be a very difficult conversation to have. Because often, for the male side of the marriage, it's a there's a high level of frustration that the wife just isn't into it. Oh, yeah. There's a lot of anger and rage there because there's a sense of failure, and it's owning the wrong thing, is what's going on.
Roane Hunter 37:57
Oh yeah. Totally. And, you know, that's the thing, you know, stages in a marriage, you know, that infatuation stage, early, early marriage, I mean, it's just lala land, you know, everything's great. And you're probably having more sex during that time, because you had more time and then, you know, kids come along, and then your lover becomes a mother. And for so many men, boy, that that can create problems. Because, you know, we, we talk about it in our, you know, just working around sexuality. There's this kind of concept of the Madonna and the whore. I think Freud wrote about this, and there's certainly some truth in that. It's like, you know, the, the wife that becomes the mother is now she's no longer kind of the, the lover, you know, the, the erotic, kind of, you know, point of your, you know, romantic fantasies, because now she's mothering. And she's distracted, you're not all that anymore, because baby is here. And men sometimes have a really hard time with that. And what you'll see is it will affect desire, it will affect arousal. And, but again, those are things that we may not even be aware that that's going on. We just know we're kind of pissed.
Ben Derrick 39:19
Yeah. When people sit with me, couples sit with me, I'll often ask this question, Who taught you about healthy sex inside of a marriage? Just give me give me a name. Any name. Pick a name. I have yet to have anyone, at a pastor level or at a coaching level counseling level, give me a name. Doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. So I then explain to them, Okay, so you just been flying blind here? Both of you? You've just been flying blind. Yeah. Hoping this was gonna work out. You know, you've heard about this magical destination. But no one's ever showed you how to get there. Where it is none of that. And that realization, I think, helps a lot of people. And then the second layer that I start walking people through is, Well, what has affected your mentality about what that looks like? One of the most frightening statistics that's coming out now is that premarital sex is on the decline. A lot of that because of pornography, but a lot of that because the results of that pornography is the first sexual experience, especially for the female is often and we're selective about this word, very traumatic, because it's mimicking porn. So let's fast forward that that's the first sexual experience. And then there's essentially anorexia in that, not because of faith reasons, just because I don't want to have that experience anymore.
Roane Hunter 40:41
Yeah. It's terrible, right?
Ben Derrick 40:42
And then the anxiety that's on the bride of I'm about to re enter, this is about to reenter my life. What is this gonna be like? And this is how we start the marriage.
Roane Hunter 40:54
Yeah, and, you know, some of the tragic stories are how marriages started the honeymoon sex and kind of what happened. Yeah. And that kind of, you know, sets the course, for the sexual part of the relationship. And a lot of times, it is not good. And then the couple just kind of rocks along, and somehow some kids come along, but they never go, like, talk to somebody to work that through to figure that out to resolve that. Because, you know, honeymoon sex oftentimes is like, you know, two kids on the playground, you know, wrestling over a football or something. Nobody knows what they're doing. The guy thinks he does, because he's watched a lot of porn. Yeah. And so he's got it figured out. And then he's trying to act that out. You know, she's, she's probably seen porn, because nowadays, you know--
Ben Derrick 41:48
It's everywhere. Yeah, streaming services.
Roane Hunter 41:50
It's just there. Young guys are telling young girls like, this is what real women do. So she's trying to do that be that and she's not, doesn't know how, and it's just, it's a disaster. That happens more commonly than what people realize. It's not the Hollywood romance Rom Com version of sex on the honeymoon. Yeah, it's usually bad.
Ben Derrick 42:15
So something that you say, you don't say very often, but you actually have said on this podcast that you are Eva-sexual.
Roane Hunter 42:23
Oh, yeah.
Ben Derrick 42:24
Part of that, I would assume,means that you have learned your wife sexually her arousal template, you've been curious enough to hear what that is. Right?
Roane Hunter 42:33
You know, I think it's one of those things that especially young couples, where do you hear about, you know, a married couple that's been married 40 years. And like, they actually love each other, they like each other, they like spending time together. Now, we're not perfect. I mean, it's a marriage, we get sideways. But we've got the tools and the skills to be able to work through that. But also, it's like the sexual part of the relationship is absolutely beautiful. Man there, I think it's kind of the way God designed it to be of like, man, that the the way that sex in a marriage is supposed to work, you know, with with lots of practice and lots of communication. Man, there's, there's, there's nothing better, nothing greater than that. I mean, so many couples don't even, where did you where do you hear that message? You don't.
Ben Derrick 43:32
You don't.
Roane Hunter 43:32
Yeah. And so, you know, all the stuff that Eva and I have been through and dealt with in our own marriage, in the work that we've done, you know, it's all worth it. I mean, Eva says it, I say it, I wouldn't trade anything for it. I mean, it was hell on earth at times. However, we hung in there, we continued plugging away, we've continued doing our work. And, again, not that we've arrived. But man, it's pretty darn good.
Ben Derrick 44:02
When you start to engage in that you essentially separate yourself out and make yourself a 1% kind of marriage. Yeah. When you're able to engage in these conversations and figure out in the ceremonies I used to do as a pastor, the wedding, which those are -- we could do a whole episode on weddings. But I talk about the joy and the mutual submission that is marriage. And when you're especially when you're in the bedroom, when you're most vulnerable self physically with this other person. You know, after a while, you start to build this palette of arousal with each other. And that becomes something that is a very sacred and secret part of what goes on inside the marriage. Other people don't know you that way. And that is a very, very distinct part of submitting to your spouse, building that part of your life together, working hard on it together. It's not one person. I mean, if you're yoked together and one person is pulling very hard, the other isn't, you're just going to go in circles. And that's a lot of what marriage feels like sexually for so many people. We're just going in circles. And the first conversation, let's be as frank as we possibly can. The first conversation around this is probably going to be difficult. And it may be unwise to have that first conversation alone with the two of you.
Roane Hunter 45:23
Oh, yeah, it's, it's definitely gonna be awkward. Yeah, there's no doubt. But what we've discovered, just in our own journey, is the more that we can talk about it, the more that we avail ourselves of the resources that are out there, and today, there's lots of great resources, whether that's a therapist or, again, needs to be Biblically based. Some counselor coming from a Christian worldview. But there's great, great books, just from Christian therapists, that honor, you know, kind of our faith. And we believe that it kind of is the way it was designed and created to be from a healthy sexuality standpoint, and what that looks like in a in a Christian marriage.
Ben Derrick 46:11
So let's talk about that. Just to wrap this episode up maybe some resources, uniquely, the work that the Laasers have done about the basic desires of the human heart plays a big part in this conversation normally, doesn't it?
Roane Hunter 46:25
Oh, yeah. Mark, and Debbie Laaser's book, The Seven Desires of Every Human Heart is it's a great resource. Mark's book, How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex, Age Appropriate Conversations for a Lifetime. That is my go-to recommendation for parents, in order to be able to talk to kids about sex, because most parents don't. It needs to be talked about. The great thing about Mark's book is like the questions where I talked about earlier, this idea of owning your story and questions around sex, and sexuality. Mark has that in the first chapter, because he believes as we do, and he believed Mark passed a couple of years ago, that like you can't impart healthy to someone in an area that you are unhealthy around. And that is just I mean, that's true in every walk of life, right?
Ben Derrick 47:23
Man, does that connect to our previous conversation about helper trauma.
Roane Hunter 47:27
Oh, my gosh.
Ben Derrick 47:28
Why didn't you say that last episode.
Roane Hunter 47:29
Yeah. Yeah. But it's, it's certainly, that's one reason we, that's our go-to book that we recommend. And then just another great resource, our longtime counselor, Dr. Doug Rosenau. Doug wrote Celebration of Sex. That book came out funny story. That book came out around '98, I think, and I was-- saw Doug all those years, in, you know, he was working on that book. And, you know, I always ask him like, Doug, am I going to be a whole chapter is my crazy story. But you know, Doug -- that book is when it came out Christian bookstores, it was shrink wrapped, right? Because it had like, charcoal pencil illustration drawings, of like, you know, helping couples understand positions and those types of things.
Ben Derrick 48:26
Oh, yeah. I remember this, this resource, because someone on the sly, gifted it to to me and to my wife. So we were going through premarital, which ours was awesome. Because a person who actually knows their stuff walked us through it.
Roane Hunter 48:43
That's rare.
Ben Derrick 48:44
Yeah, it was very rare. Thank God. But this book, someone just handed it to us in the parking lot one day. Yeah. Now they had taken the shrink wrap off apparently.
Roane Hunter 48:53
Okay, good.
Ben Derrick 48:53
Yeah. Maybe they had read it before. But yeah, it set us off on an incredible path. Actually.
Roane Hunter 48:59
But, you know, that just speaks again, that was 98 and we're shrink wrapping a book like that around probably the best book on Christian healthy sexuality--
Ben Derrick 49:09
Because of drawings.
Roane Hunter 49:10
That tells you where we've been with the sex thing, right? And you know, that book now is used. I mean, most seminaries that teach any course. It's rare to the, you know, the, the M-Divers, but you know, Doug's book is kind of the go to textbook that is used in seminaries across the country now.
Ben Derrick 49:34
Man, good for them. Yeah. So there is hope is what we're saying. We always want to make sure that's part of every episode that we do, because so many people find our podcast in a place of desperation. But there is hope and engaging in this conversation about mutual curiosity and arousal inside of a marriage and the problems that feel so desperate and so dark and so ingrained once you begin to communicate about those problems, they come to the light, and you can receive help and healing over those particular issues and appreciate an incredible sex life together.
Roane Hunter 50:09
Mm hmm. Yeah. That's, you know, if people engage. It's hard because there's so much shame around this on so many levels on both sides of the fence. But if they will engage the process, I mean, there's so much hope, no matter what kind of sexual brokenness that you're dealing with, whether it's on the kind of the compulsive addictive side, or whether it's on the aversion anorexic side, you know, there's there's there's just a lot of resources today that were not available back in the day.
Ben Derrick 50:48
Yeah, so start the conversation. To learn more about what you've heard today, and to engage with the Sex, God and Chaos Team, visit sexgodchaos.com