In this episode, we explore the unintended harm caused by well-intentioned helpers from pastors to counselors to peers. We discuss stories of individuals seeking guidance from helpers only to receive harmful advice. We unpack the idea that these individuals, in fact, may not have received helpful support but instead, were traumatized by it. The episode also sheds light on how certain Bible passages or myths that exist in the Church can be taken out of context and cause more harm than good. Roane and Ben call this unhelpful intervention, "helper trauma." This episode is for anyone seeking guidance, as well as those who wish to better understand the potential harm caused by helpers who may not have the necessary knowledge or training. Join us as we uncover the broader range of problems that can arise when people seek help and instead receive harm.
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Ben Derrick 0:04
Welcome to the Sex, God, and Chaos podcast, a conversation built to help you address the mess, connect the dots and defeat addiction. Doing your work matters because if nothing changes, then nothing changes. Life is tough and we're here to help. I'm your host, Ben Derrick. And as always, I'll be joined by Roane Hunter. Let's jump right in.
Roane, Episode, whatever? I don't know. How far into this are we?
Roane Hunter 0:31
I think this is Episode, what is it? Like 3,271?
Ben Derrick 0:36
No, those are listens per episode.
Roane Hunter 0:38
Oh, yeah.
Ben Derrick 0:39
Totally different fact there. So, well, look, I've appreciated the fact that we're growing and learning as we go along. We're bringing in some guests, we're bringing in some legacy episodes. And today we're doing something very brave for both of us. And that's going public with the kind of conversations we have in private.
Roane Hunter 0:57
Yeah, the most worried person today is Eva.
Ben Derrick 1:00
Yeah, well, Cammie, my wife, is fine, because I didn't tell her we were doing. That's the only reason. So I find I really appreciate the way that we were able to be honest and back and forth in our different perspectives of you being inside of the church as a participant, me being inside the church on staff for so long. And as I've said before, I think I have the privilege of being able to talk honestly about it, for two reasons: because I committed my life to it for over a decade. Also, because the community that I operate within is a very beautiful community that's very flawed in a lot of ways. And I think if we're ever going to get better at how we are participating and doing church in the West, we got to have some honest conversations about that. But we're going to come at it from a little bit of a different angle today, using the terminology of helper trauma, which extends way beyond the church. Can actually be involved with clinicians, people in the mental health industry itself. So I think it would be helpful for our listeners if we just started there with -- most of our listeners have not heard of helper -- they probably experienced thhat, some of them, but they weren't able to give it a label. How would you define "helper trauma"?
Roane Hunter 2:12
Gosh, we've heard story after story, where somebody went to either a pastor, a counselor, some type of helper person. And I believe that people were well intentioned and well meaning. However, what they gave these people, it was not helpful, it was harmful. And we've seen that just in a lot of different ways and cases over the years. And so it's just the idea that, you know, it can be traumatizing. Some of the things that is passed on to people is somehow supposed to be helpful. And it might be a Bible passage or some myth that exists in the church about whatever. And you know, it's almost like a some of the stuff I hear I go, "where did they get that? Where did that come from?" And, you know, it can be traced back to some terrible, out-of-context, Bible translation or verse that is just taken totally out of left field. And then they're told, you know, "this is the way -- this is the path." And it is just damaging. And sometimes, you know, we call it, "treatment trauma," but I think "helper trauma" covers a wider, range of problems, and people actually seeking help and getting harm.
Ben Derrick 3:42
Yeah, I actually love the change there to "helper trauma" because it actually includes that peer to peer -- or those friends who love to get into situations and give advice, those counter-phobic friends that are like, "this is what you should do," or "I would do this." And so there's a lot of confusion often around when people do develop the courage to pursue help, if they go to the wrong place, whether it be an ill-equipped friend, an ill-equipped pastor, an ill-equipped therapist that -- those are actually out there. I think is important to put out in this space. Because many people who are listening to this podcast have been to a session, or two or 10, and just don't understand what's being delivered to them. And they interpret their confusion about the methods or the way to investigate what's going on in their life --they interpret that confusion as something is wrong with them. Actually, there's something wrong with the help that's being offered to you.
Roane Hunter 4:00
Very wrong.
Ben Derrick 4:37
But there's this implicit level of trust when it comes to counselors and therapists and pastors. Or especially people in our friend base that are older than us, you just kind of assume, "well, they must know what they're talking about," you know. And then you layer on that, "It's your best thinking that's gotten you here," which is a favorite thing for ill-equipped people to say. Then we've got a real problem that -- our desire through this episode is to help people be set free from that. Not from a cynical point of view, but from an informative point of view.
Roane Hunter 5:10
Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, one of the things we often say is, if you go and see a counselor or therapist, it's like, the first thing you need to ask them is, tell me about the work that you've done.
Ben Derrick 5:23
Oh, boy. Yeah, I would back up and say that again. "Tell me about the work that you've done."
Roane Hunter 5:30
Yeah, it's so important. And, you know, generally speaking, that's a good rule of thumb. Because if they haven't done their own work, and they, you know, gained their knowledge from a textbook, you're probably not going to get a lot of help. And so it's just so important to find out how much time they've spent sitting on the couch before you engage with them. And it's okay to interview your therapist, your counselor, because, I mean, we're actually, you know, what we're doing is sitting in a room, you know, talking with people. We're not doing brain surgery. I mean, yeah, whether I've got a degree from Harvard, or whether I've got a degree from the community college, so much of it in this realm, it really is just, I would say, experience and wisdom. And usually, those two things go hand in hand. Hard earned wisdom from bad experiences is mostly, I think, how we learn a lot in working with this.
Ben Derrick 6:36
In our own lives, you know, and I think even -- you know, let's talk culturally, for just a moment. If you walk into someone's office, and you see certifications and diplomas, I mean, those are kind of the things that we put up there. And many of those are hard earned. Great that you would want to celebrate those things. They can be a little bit of a smokescreen, though, for someone who is very highly degreed and still very deceived about their own station in life and doing their own work emotionally, not just intellectually. And that's kind of the root of what you would need to sit with them in a room to help them process what's going on in their life. I mean, often I see that the facts of whatever's brought them into a session are pretty clear. We're not very confused about the facts. Maybe some. But predominantly, what they're needing help with is processing through those facts at an emotional level. You talk often about fact impact and track. That impact piece is so very important because the facts are usually pretty known. Maybe not completely known if we haven't done a full disclosure yet. But the real trouble comes in, I think, when we start to pretend to be something that we're not. That's where the helper finds himself in a lot of trouble.
Roane Hunter 7:52
Yeah. And you know, so often, you know, the first line of defense is, as you well know, because you were in the role, people want to go talk to their pastor, their preacher, their priest, whatever faith denomination that, you know. Most of the time that's the first person that they want to go talk to. And, you know, certainly those guys, I certainly respect and I know that it's not an easy job. It's a hard job, no doubt. However, it's always wise to kind of-- like the old Dirty Harry movie. See, I just made another old man reference, didn't I?
Ben Derrick 8:36
You did, yeah. This is Clint Eastwood, if people want to Google.
Roane Hunter 8:38
Clint Eastwood. Old, old movie, where he just looks at the guy and says, you know, a man's got to know his limitations. And I think that's just good advice for all of us, is just the idea, if I don't really know what I'm doing, I probably shouldn't rush in where angels fear to tread. Right?
Ben Derrick 9:00
Yeah, that's very true. However, it does happen on a very regular basis.
Roane Hunter 9:04
Very consistent.
Ben Derrick 9:05
Yes. So let's extend some grace here, which is, I know a very churchy thing to say, but let's try to walk a mile in that other person's shoes. They're approached on a random Thursday morning, all hell's broken loose inside of a marriage, husband and wife drive up to the church in a fury. And then they're sitting in the pastor's office, and you're going to be in that situation unprepared, maybe once. But after that, you're going to start preparing yourself maybe in a lot of the incorrect ways, but many of them are trying to do right by their constituents, the people that are trusting them. I think best practices -- and I would lay this on any pastor out there, having been one for so long-- the best practice would be to handle the level of confession that that person is ready to do. Because that is your role as a spiritual person and guide in the community. And then after that, help the person or the couple get clarity about the work that's ahead. And that work being handed off to someone who actually knows what they're doing. Right?
Roane Hunter 10:07
Yeah, that, you know, the thing that I just over the years I get frustrated with is, I always call it just the magic Jesus bus, which I'm, I'm always for it man, I tell people, man, when that sucker stops by my house...
Ben Derrick 10:23
I'm getting on it.
Roane Hunter 10:23
I'm on it. I'm looking for it. I want it. However, in my case, the bus hasn't stopped by the house. And so what I've had to do is I've had to do my work. And I believe that, you know, what God is interested in, on this faith journey, ultimately, is just the development and the formation of my character into the image and likeness of Jesus. Not that I'm going to be Jesus, I'm certainly not and never will be. But it's, it's the idea of just, you know, the image and character. And, you know, he was the model of the most well boundaried human being that ever walked the planet. And he offered us so much in Scripture about how to actually live life and live it abundantly. You know, there's, there's words to that effect. And oftentimes at church, I sometimes wonder if I'm just at a weekly kind of evangelism explosion rally, because I just hear you know, "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus," which I'm sure Jesus appreciates that. However, when he was here, you know, he didn't preach Jesus. I mean, he, he, he preached the father, he pointed us to the the ultimate role, and he pointed us to relationship with the Father. And so it's, and then he gave us a model and he tells us what it means to actually live it out on a daily basis. Even in practical terms, the stories, everything in there is all about what it means to be a whole healthy follower of Jesus. And so I think sometimes it's almost like, we just, you know, we we preach the magic Jesus bus and we're waiting for it to show up, and we look around the church and you're thinking, man, everybody got on the bus but me or something, because it just hasn't worked that way in my life. And then you feel shame, and you feel less than and it just perpetuates the very thing that we're all struggling with on some level. And it's really kind of sad.
Ben Derrick 12:41
Yeah, it is. I think that's the thing that motivates me these days. Not that I want to be the reformer of the Western Church. But I do want to reach in there and help men, grab men specifically, that are walking into these gatherings just anesthetized and have very low expectations because of that very thing that you're talking about. Unless they wander into a community where a pastor has done his work, and is willing to talk about emotional health, is willing to talk about his failures, is willing to talk about the difficulties in his marriage, or how his family was silent around sex, and he's perpetuated that inside of the community, because it's a difficult thing to talk about. And, you know, everyone's having sex, but nobody's talking about having sex. So this is a bad scenario, right? And especially sexual brokenness. So I think that's the thing that's really driving me these days to discuss this as honestly as possible. Because I believe if a man soldiers into a church parking lot and walks through those doors, and he doesn't receive something that he needs, we've missed a really large opportunity. And it's happening over and over again, because we experience the programs of church, but the process of life change seems to at the very least, get watered down or muddied in some way. And then when that man out of desperation, seeks out that pastor, and it's a pastor who hasn't done his work, and let's just talk about this for a moment. I believe I went to one of the finest institutions to prepare to be a pastor that there is at Baylor University. We did not have a single opportunity in an education setting to talk about sexual brokenness. Not one. Well, what did I meet when I went into the church? Sexual brokenness. Whoa, nobody got me ready for this, right. And I was also allowed to get a job at a church to get a job in ministry, before I really fully knew myself or had done my work, mostly because I hadn't been challenged to do so. You know, I had learned how to how to participate in church but I had not learned how to participate with my own story.
Roane Hunter 14:54
Yeah, and man that that's so you know that that's the case most of the time And if if you haven't done your work, you're not even gonna know what the work is, and then we're going to be unaware. You know, our false self is working for us. Because somehow it sounds good. You know, God has called me to ministry. And boy, it's kind of the Christian version of virtue signaling on the woke side. We can throw that in there. Like, yeah, virtue signaling, yeah. Cuz God spoke to me call me and the reality of it is, I think, and just years of kind of walking this faith journey, and seeing, you know, so many different things along the way. But it really the, it the whole faith journey is, is really the idea of moving towards wholeness. And it's like, I want to be emotionally whole and relationally skilled and those things are things that you can learn, learning how to regulate emotions, not just kind of putting a spiritual bandaid on it. And there's just so much to it and, you know, Jesus talks about it all the time, you know, even the go and sin no more is, uh, I mean, that's like, go and you better be ready, because it's gonna be hard. Right?
Ben Derrick 16:21
Oh, yes. It's sitting there waiting to devour you. I mean, this is really intense language. He asked individuals, one man in particular 38 years of paralysis, do you actually want to get better yet? Can you imagine
Roane Hunter 16:37
stupid question
Ben Derrick 16:38
walking up to someone in modern society who has experienced physical disability and asking them, I mean, do you really want to get better?
Roane Hunter 16:48
It's kind of rude.
Ben Derrick 16:48
Extremely rude.
Roane Hunter 16:49
Can we say that about Jesus?
Ben Derrick 16:52
Yeah, of course, he was rude all the time.
Roane Hunter 16:54
It's why I love him.
Ben Derrick 16:56
Look, he was very opposite, he was the very opposite of Ned Flanders, which -- but that's the picture
Roane Hunter 17:02
Mr. Rogers, my favorite Jesus.
Ben Derrick 17:05
So he circles back around to this man later on. And he says, Hey, you're looking well, after he heals him, Hey, you're looking well make sure that you don't sin anymore, or else something worse may happen. Yeah, I mean, that's a big warning. Right. And I think you and I have both been-- or excuse me, let me correct that. I know that you and I've both been accused of being extremely hostile towards the church. And I'm not using this podcast as a platform to correct my reputation. But I would say I think our honesty is confused with hostility.
Roane Hunter 17:39
Yeah, I always say, I've been involved in church since the day I came to Jesus, literally. And I've been a part of a church involved in church since that day, and I was 20 years old. And I'm a little older than that now. Yeah. But I always say, you know, I believe that part of our call as followers of Jesus is certainly speaking into things that need to be spoken into inside of the church. And I tell guys all the time, man, you know, we need to be throwing rocks through the stained glass windows from the inside, not the outside. I want to be a part I am a part and will be a part. I mean, and even St. Augustine. I mean, God forbid, we quote St. Augustine. Yeah, the Catholic. First of all, oh my gosh. But But Agustine said it you know, he said that the church is my mother, and she's a whore. I like, -- don't -- look -- don't don't write me, email me.
Ben Derrick 18:48
Google it. He actually said it.
Roane Hunter 18:50
he said that. Call St. Augustine. I think there's a complaint line. probably. I don't know. Always. I'm just amazed. Because I say things that, you know, the Church Fathers, throughout church history have said, I mean, here's another thing people don't know, Martin Luther, the Reformation, we wouldn't be sitting here doing this if it weren't for him. Martin Luther like he, he gave seminars and to teach sailors how to cuss. It's pretty amazing that yeah, we would, Martin Luther would not be allowed in your average Bible, Baptist Sunday school class, I don't know.
Ben Derrick 19:30
We've obviously both taken that those seminars, as evidenced by our time in the woods. But you know, what I find very interesting is part of what we're trying to do is not disassociate from these communities, the Christian community or the mental health community. We're trying to engage with these communities
Roane Hunter 19:51
100%
Ben Derrick 19:52
as best we can, and to make sure that the people who are pursuing help in those modalities are able to find sound thinking about these things and people who are equipped to handle these sorts of situations. And that really is the tragedy, isn't it ,that some people pursue education they pursue certifications. And the only thing stopping them from being good helpers, is engaging with their own life and their own story. So this is why you say it's the number one question that we should ask because I think our listeners are probably looking for some practical advice at this point in the episode, when you sit down with a counselor, when you sit down with a pastor, you would say the number one question to ask, Hey, before we get started, tell me about your work. Even if you have to blow 30 minutes of the first hour.
Roane Hunter 20:40
Oh, yeah, it's so important.
Ben Derrick 20:42
And even we had a portion of one class one semester that was about premarital. And I respected the man very much. His advice to us was, if a couple has decided to be married, they might as well do it under the covering of God. That was that was his advice.
Roane Hunter 21:15
that that, and that's very practical and helpful. And then how many courses did you have during that time on just what I would call healthy sexuality or sexuality?
Ben Derrick 21:28
zero
Roane Hunter 21:28
None. Yeah, I knew the answers .
Ben Derrick 21:31
our emotional health classes, or our preparation fell under the term spiritual formation. And thank God, they were doing a lot of stuff with the Desert Fathers uniquely, yeah, which was really helpful. But I was outside of the Southern Baptist ecosystem enough to where I was able to grab those things. But I've been trying to convince people for a couple of years now, just because I can sermonize well, and study the Bible well, and present 30 minutes of a very narrow scope of material inside of the Bible, doesn't mean I'm equipped to help you through your sexual brokenness, through your pornography addiction, through your affair disclosure, all of those things require very specific type of training. Not only that, but also reps, reps, where you're learning from people who have done those sorts of things before and I think you'd be a good place to mention. So because the pastors have turned off this episode by now. Yeah. But
Roane Hunter 22:28
They're throwing rocks at the radio. Yeah, exactly.
Ben Derrick 22:32
There are certain people inside of the therapy, the counseling space that do not specialize in some of the things that you may be going through in your life. So that's another layer of the question. Tell me about your work. Yeah. After that. Okay. Then tell me do you sit with people in this scenario? Frequently, often? More than once?
Roane Hunter 22:53
Oh, yeah. Right. Yep. In, you know, again, we're not just picking on pastors. It's a hard job. We get it, obviously, you get it more than I do. But I can pick on the therapist, and just some of the things that we've heard from, you know, couples or individuals that have come to us after going to other counselors and therapists, and just some of the things that they were told and what they got, like, what have you been doing? And oftentimes, I will sit with somebody who saw another therapist for some, you know, pretty good period of time. And I'll always ask them, you know, tell me about the trauma work that you've done in when they say, oh I haven't really done any that any of that or what's trauma.
Ben Derrick 23:45
What's trauma. Square one.
Roane Hunter 23:46
Yeah. Then, and Oh, wow. You You were one Yeah, you spend a lot of time kind of spinning your wheels talking about your feelings or something. I don't know what they did, but it wasn't much
Ben Derrick 23:57
worksheets of some sort. Yeah, so
Roane Hunter 23:59
always great. And then I mean, just, you know, story after story in some ways, in specifically when it comes to this area, arena of sexual brokenness, sexual betrayal, betrayal, trauma, porn addiction, sex addiction, sexual brokenness, our preferred term, yeah, man. It's just, there's just a lot to it. And of course, we work with anything and everything. But like, this issue gets to the core of every relationship. I tell people often Yeah, we specialize around sexual brokenness. However, we're kind of like the guy that can rebuild your Lamborghini. At this level of work, we can probably fix your Rambler station wagon. I don't know.
Ben Derrick 24:56
Yeah, yeah. We're fully prepared for whatever work you bring on.
Roane Hunter 24:59
yeah. I think I think we can because -- and that's the part, oftentimes people think, I don't know, I don't know what people think. But it seems it's like, oh, they work with sex addiction, which we don't even like the term. But really what it is at the root of it all, it's an intimacy disorder. And it has to do with attachment issues. It has to do with emotional regulation/ dysregulation. It's all the stuff that that affects every other mental health issue or emotional issue that anybody has. Because this cuts across the grain. It's every aspect of your humanness, your entire soul. So yeah, we we we can work with about anything.
Ben Derrick 25:46
Yeah, the number of sessions that are usually required just to untangle the two words, sex and intimacy. It's just a big tell on how we're all trained -- Like, two different words. Very same thing. Yeah. Speaking of definitions, and words, I love to take a second to talk about because this happens in in both modalities inside the counseling space and the church space. Let's talk about spiritual bypass. Because I think if we were to rank, helper trauma, spiritual bypass would probably be in the top two or top three as a technique that's offered to people who are hurting, that just feels empty, but they probably don't know that there's a term for it.
Roane Hunter 26:33
Yeah, it's kind of like you know, every day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before, right?
Ben Derrick 26:39
It just hit me right in the feels there.
Roane Hunter 26:42
Yeah, it really did. I can tell you know, just forgetting what his past and pressing on towards the goal to win the prize is like, just you know, forget about all that stuff.
Ben Derrick 26:51
No man who looks back. They even quote Jesus.
Roane Hunter 26:54
Yeah yeah. Move on. out of context, quoting Jesus, I have found not to be helpful. But it's
Ben Derrick 27:01
I heard Tim Mackey.say the other day a guy that's with the Bible project. They're doing incredible stuff. But he termed that he said, I heard a pastor rip a passage from the context bleeding all over the pages. Whoa, that's exactly how that happens. Yeah. So spiritual bypass is like laying these. What could we say? Like Christian radio statements over things or Christian greeting card statements over things that are very real and very painful. But we've been taught. Oh, well, you should be a new man now. Oh, yeah. The old has passed the new has come. That's funny, because I looked at porn and masturbated last night. Yeah. So past when you are the wife is like, that's funny, because we were just in an argument all the way to this session. So obviously, neither one of us are new people right now. But the spiritual bypass aspect of helper trauma, just, it feels like such a betrayal. Because it's a source in our society that feels like it should be so helpful. And it's delivered in a way that doesn't feel helpful at all. And then you feel full of shame, and full of guilt that you apparently can't ascend enough to the spiritual reality, to understand how helpful that could actually be.
Roane Hunter 28:21
Yeah. And it perpetuates, you know, what we call the kind of our core beliefs, which typically, you know, that's the, that's the toxic shame. And we've all formed these, you know, a belief system about ourselves. Oftentimes, I say, this work that we do, it really is spiritual formation, our spiritual form from the day we're born until the day we die, for good or for evil. And so these things that happen in our lives, these experiences, the circumstances, along the way, we come up with a story, it turns into a belief system about me, because especially when we're little, we're narcissist. Hopefully we grow out of it. Some people don't, right. But those belief systems begin to form in there things like, I'm not enough, I'm inadequate, I'm insignificant, I don't matter. I'm on my own, I'm alone. And then we grow up and become big people. And but that that false belief those lies, you know, the, the accuser of the brethren, brethren, the father of lies, we do have an enemy, he's real and he I believe he plants those shame core messages in us. And he goes back home to Las Vegas because that's where he lives full time. Got it got a townhouse in New Orleans on Bourbon Street, loves Mardi Gras. But it's like man, the shame is now at work and the shame is what drives us into our distress reduction behaviors is the thing that we are seeking relief from in our illegitimate coping mechanisms. And if we don't begin to get to the root of why we are doing what we do, well guess what? We'll live life by the directions on the shampoo bottle, as I always say, lather, rinse, repeat.
Ben Derrick 30:14
I find it very appropriate at this point in the conversation to talk about the tactics of the enemy of mankind to the Christian worldview used on Jesus Himself in isolation in the desert were a bastardization of the sacred text. That's exactly what was happening there.
Roane Hunter 30:33
It's the same thing.
Ben Derrick 30:34
temptation to spiritually bypass, right. And thankfully, with Jesus, it did not work. But unfortunately with us, it often does work. So how we see this practically work out, just so our listeners can wrap their head around it. If you sit with someone helper, or whatever type of helper they are. And they begin to talk to you about God the Father, and he's, he's a good good father. He's our Good Good Father. There's a song that I've heard in church a few times about that. But if my relationship with my father was absolute trash, and my father is the main person that I'm looking to early in life, to try to determine if there is a God what that God is like, as a father. Maybe we should talk about that, before I start throwing Bible at you before I start talking about God as a father and, and punishment and consequences and all those things because the paradigm through which I'm feeling and seeing those things is my relationship with my dad. I mean, I think most of us, male or female, need to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what part of our parents have we actually layered on top of the idea of God. So if you too quickly rush into well, let's roll through the story. And let me throw a Bible verse at you, that talks about, you know, whatever you ask or imagine, and what the only thing you are asking or imagining as a child was a little bit of attention, healthy attention from your dad. And if I'm talking to you about God, being a father, all that is very convoluted. And we need to take the time to kind of figure that out and learn each other's stories rather than just giving a prescription or giving a program which most of us in the helper trade who have participated in the spiritual bypas, that's exactly what we're doing.
Roane Hunter 32:17
Oh, yeah. Just, there's a great book around this kind of how we project God on to the Father. It's, it's called Angry Conversations with God. Susan Isaacs wrote it. She was on the Seinfeld show, she was kind of one of those irregular, regular, she was on there pretty regular. And it just, it's kind of details her kind of certainly her story or Christian journey. And it is hilarious. That sounds great. Rudy is the Christian counselor that she goes to see, okay, and at the end of each chapter, it is it's kind of the transcript of their counseling sessions. It's hilarious, cuz she's taking God to do marriage counseling. Yeah, with Rudy, the Christian counselor.
Ben Derrick 33:09
That's how to do it.
Roane Hunter 33:10
It's so great. But, you know, spoiler alert, you know, she figures out that like, the God that she thinks she knows is really, she just projected her father on God, God onto her father. And yeah, it's, I mean, it just teases that out beautifully. And then the best part is like Jesus shows up every now and then and he's kind of like, surfer dude Jesus, you know, the -- the picture the flowing hair glowing flowing blonde hair, Jesus. And he's kind of interested, but he's got this faraway look in his eye. Kind of there, but not there. Yeah, but he's cool.
Ben Derrick 33:49
I think today, you'd have to call him a gummy Jesus. He's had a gummy or two, right?
Roane Hunter 33:53
Yeah, yeah. Relevant. We'd call him Yeah, yeah. The relevant. Yes. Yeah. contempor vant Jesus.
Ben Derrick 34:00
Oh, boy. Yeah. Well, what I find so interesting, too, is this this really doesn't take anyone anywhere. Yes, it never works. No, but we keep trying it over and over and over again. So there's got to be a movement. I think if people and I would say we're, we would love to be a part of that movement, that are starting more honest conversations about what it means to engage with your whole self. And what it means to allow yourself to know your story well enough, that you can determine how to pace through the rest of your story, without any trigger without having to endure your trauma. That sort of work is often not going to occur if you just pick someone who has a place of status or position inside of a church community or even inside of a community you have to do your work. If you are going to someone and you are going to get surgery, then you will probably look into that person and if they had done the surgery before how it went how many people died. On the table, let's talk about this question. Yeah, before I just go under this anaesthesia and allow you to do work on me, then it's my job to take control of my care, you know? And then I think the larger question is what, what is the end goal here? Is the end goal to be able to just chat this out with somebody. And here's some stuff that sounds either clinical or spiritual enough for us to feel better that we've opened up, or is the goal to live better, you know, to be better long term, and that's going to require a certain type of care. And it unfortunately means that there are so many out there who have websites that have phone numbers of business, but they're just not ready,
Roane Hunter 35:43
Tik Tok therapists, my favorite.
Ben Derrick 35:45
oh, my goodness. I, you know, I don't participate in Tik Tok, for obvious reasons. But I feel like I do, because people will pull their phone up and say, you know, I heard the other day.
Roane Hunter 35:56
Yeah. On Tik Tok.
Ben Derrick 35:57
Yeah, so this was outside of session. But I think this gives us a definite example of what we're talking about. I had a man sitting down with we were having a meal. And he said, You know what, I'm just and he was using expletives. And I don't want to have to worry about editing those out. But he said, I'm just so mad at God. And I feel bad about that. Because I know it's wrong. And I set my fork down. And I said very biblically, who told you that? Who told you that it's wrong to be mad at God? Because the way I read the Bible, and some of the most holy people that I'm in relationship with, we spent have spent extended periods of their life very angry with God. Yeah. And they took their anger to God. And, and you know what he said to me? Well, my parents, my parents told me it was wrong to be mad at God. And I said, Well, your parents were wrong. They were wrong. They were teaching you things that are just not correct. And not helpful and not helpful. Right? So we're, we're going after a picture of when we're pursuing help from someone, that someone needs to be equipped to engage all of these things, our sexuality, our spirituality, our emotional health, our interactions with traumatic events in the past, the ways that we've developed to cope with those things that may have been working, that aren't working any longer. I mean, there's just a whole long list of things that need to happen. So far caught up just sliding Bible verses across the table. We're not really getting to the work.
Roane Hunter 37:29
Yeah. And, you know, in in my church, formative years, no, my church formative years started at 20. Because I grew up in the Eastern Christian denomination. We didn't go to church. Okay, only at Easter, maybe, maybe. Yeah. And so I really, you know, sometimes I'm glad that I did not grow up in it, because I don't have the baggage that so many people do around what they learned and all the terrible stuff. I mean, it sounds like you're just generalizing, there's good, there's good,
Ben Derrick 38:03
but it's often the bad that sticks though, we gotta be honest about that.
Roane Hunter 38:06
It does, it really does. And so, but in my formative years of starting going to church, you know, the, the person in church that was the, like, the Sunday school teacher, or the Bible Study leader, you know, it was always the person that the you know, they knew the most Bible, they had the most knowledge. I mean, they'd quote chapters, right, wow.
Ben Derrick 38:31
Addresses.
Roane Hunter 38:31
Yeah, I mean, it's like, whoa, but they were always the ones like, Man, that guy. You know, man, he, he's, he's, he's the man, however they said, it. I'm like, I always, you know, because I get to know some of those people. And I was like, wow, I don't want to be around you. I don't want you on my life team. However, when Bible trivia breaks out in the parking lot at Walmart, I want you on my team because I'm competitive. And I want to win. Yeah, yeah. But man, would I ever even think about calling that guy for, like, some kind of help in a life situation? Absolutely not, because he's just gonna throw a Bible dart at me. And it's probably.
Ben Derrick 39:18
Those are aggressive.
Roane Hunter 39:18
probably gonna hurt. It's not gonna be helpful.
Ben Derrick 39:21
So this is something that just comes to the top of my mind as we're having this conversation. But I've also found that the best helpers are often the most quiet about it. Yeah, they're not the people parading around like I am the medicine. We are the medicine. Yes.
Roane Hunter 39:36
I've got the answer.
Ben Derrick 39:37
I've got the answer. You know, I mean, I understand that we that people have to market and you have to make a little noise so that people know where to find you. You know, you've got to blow that marketing whistle a touch. But those that are making some of the largest most grandiose promises, usually do not have what it takes to back those up. So just something to be aware of, I know Narcissism is a huge word in culture today, kind of like trauma, we need to break those down a little bit.
Roane Hunter 40:02
Yes, we will.
Ben Derrick 40:03
I don't mean to imply that everyone who's screaming loudly is a narcissist. But that usually is a touch of a smokescreen that someone might not have the chops to really help you through a difficult situation.
Roane Hunter 40:16
Yeah. I kind of long for the day. I don't know, in church, we'll just use that. Maybe in other places too where it's like, man, you know, you really ought to go sit with Ben. Because, you know, he knows how to do life. And, yeah, I talked to him, and he really helped me work through some things. You know, he's a guy that he gets it, you know, he knows he knows his stuff, because he's done his work. What if? What if that person was the one that was lifted up in church? Do you think things might be a little different?
Ben Derrick 40:51
Perhaps? Yeah. What's rewarded gets repeated. Yeah. And unfortunately, spiritual bypass has been highly rewarded, at least in the American South.
Roane Hunter 41:03
Where we live, yeah.
Ben Derrick 41:04
Could be a little bit different.
Roane Hunter 41:05
don't you know, let's start on the holy grail of Christiandom, you know, the missionaries that gets sent out overseas or yes, yeah, we have a huge listenership in Switzerland, by the way.
Ben Derrick 41:16
Yeah. Welcome all of you, thank you.
Roane Hunter 41:17
Thank you, all of you. We we like, Swiss we like Swiss Miss hot chocolate.
Ben Derrick 41:24
Have microphones will travel.
Roane Hunter 41:26
Yeah. Yeah.
Ben Derrick 41:27
Beautiful part of the world.
Roane Hunter 41:28
All of our Swiss friends. Yeah. But it's, it's like, you know, in our world, especially here in the south, the holy grail of Christiandom was the people that get called to go on the mission field. And, you know, I used to even sit there in church. I'm looking at I know some of these people sitting around me, and I always thought, I think the greatest mission field on the planet is probably inside the four walls of that church on Sunday. Why are we sending people they need to be sending people over here is more my guess. Yeah. I don't know what's going on.
Ben Derrick 42:02
We're the Americans and we're here to help.
Roane Hunter 42:04
Why are we exporting? What are we? Yeah, we're exporting porn to the other countries.
Ben Derrick 42:08
Oh my goodness.
Roane Hunter 42:09
Sorry. All right. We've pissed off the pastor, the pastors, they left long ago, they
Ben Derrick 42:18
certain therapists and now the missionaries
Roane Hunter 42:20
the therapists, and now the missionaries.
Ben Derrick 42:22
Now every American.
Roane Hunter 42:23
Who have we got left? Yeah, every American. Oh gosh, we'll start a book, we'll talk about the movie Idiocracy.
Ben Derrick 42:29
Okay, so book the we're rolling through recently that we're rolling through the end of trauma. We ran across this. It's a paragraph but I think it's worth referencing, because it's pretty amazing. Yeah, talking about the desired end state of engaging with the helper. It's a pretty comprehensive list.
Roane Hunter 42:47
Yeah. The book The End of trauma. Dr. George Banano, pronounce his last name wrong. Professor of Psychology at Columbia. And it's one of those books that caught my eye because, you know, in psychobabble world, you know, everything is trauma, trauma, trauma, trauma felt like the herd of wildebeest running off the cliff. But somehow I look up and look around like what's going on here? Because it's just we've gone overboard and I think in certain ways, it really kind of detracts denigrates real trauma. And I've gotten to where I'm starting to differentiate between just emotional dysregulation and distress reduction behavior. A lot of what we call trauma is really emotional distress, not necessarily trauma. You know, when your mother quit breastfeeding you too soon. That might not be trauma, getting shot at getting, I mean, there's there's real, there's just real trauma,
Ben Derrick 43:55
Certainly different levels of trauma, but we've abandoned those levles to a certain degree.
Roane Hunter 44:00
We have. Yeah, everything's trauma. And I believe it's just it's certainly contributed to the victim culture. And in his book, he goes into some research around PTSD with around 911. And it's just, it's, it kind of it kind of falls in line with how I was beginning to just think, man, we're we're off the chain with trauma. Because he talks about two things that it takes in order to kind of overcome to deal with real trauma, resilience and flexibility. I -- when I talk about it always add integrity, because if I'm not living out of my integrity, and I'm continuing to do things that are harmful to myself, and others, I'm probably going to be traumatizing myself and others in my life. So it's important, but he in the book, he talks about, he did research because there's more about resilience now. And so he, he, he looked at popular books, media academic journals, and came up with what he describes, based on these, what he found in his research on resilience. And I love this list because like, Okay, I mean, yeah, none of us are gonna do all of these. But so often, it's like, what is the goal of this work that we talked about? What is what's my desired outcome? What am I after? Well, I think he came up with a pretty good list of what I believe an emotionally healthy, relationally skilled person would be. All right. So here we go. Resilient people are in control of their feelings, self aware and mindful, they pay attention to their bodily sensations. They're tolerant of painful emotions, acknowledge grief, and are able to face their own fears. They practice self care, self nurturance, self compassion and self respect. They are curious, and they have a good sense of humor as well as a clear capacity for joy. They are optimistic, hopeful and patient, but also tenacious and gritty. They have good problem solving skills, set reasonable goals, take an action oriented, approach and believe in their own abilities. They have a broad perspective, visualize resilience in their lives and have the capacity to embrace change. When bad things happen. They write about them find meaning, and identify as survivors, rather than victims. They're able to transform adversity into opportunity, their spiritual and religious morally strong practice thankfulness and take time for solitude. They are involved in their lives committed and enjoy a sense of purpose. They have a clear sense of autonomy and control over their lives. But they're also altruistic, accepting, forgiving, and non judgmental. They recognize their own limitations and admit their mistakes. And they help others but are also able to ask for help when they need it. They are securely attached to their closest family members and friends. And they have supportive relationships with many other people. They also have good genes and they exercise regularly. That's a pretty good list, I think.
Ben Derrick 47:35
Yes. So what the what we're working from here is if you're looking for a good helper, they will check off a lot of those boxes.
Roane Hunter 47:44
Yeah, I mean, truly, yeah, absolutely.
Ben Derrick 47:47
And it doesn't matter that they have the label pastor. Yeah. Or that they have a website as a counselor, or a practice or group. When you sit with them, you need to be you need to have that list in mind. And asking those questions because a good helper is going to be able to engage with that list. I can't tell you how elated I would be if if a man sat on this couch and said, Hey, I got a list for you. I need just rank these one to 10.
Roane Hunter 48:13
Tell me where you are. Wouldn't that be awesome?
Ben Derrick 48:25
Oh this is gonna be good.
Roane Hunter 48:26
I love this guy. Yeah. Just even an awareness of those things. Like, you know, what, what's the desired outcome in the work that I'm doing? I mean, I think that's kind of a good list of where we're all headed. Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's just so interesting. It's like when you I mean, it just going back to just our spiritual life, spiritual journey. So often, I believe the reason we go towards, like Bible knowledge, right? Because it's kind of like a list. Just give me a list. I can check off the list, right?
Ben Derrick 49:05
Top five things I need to do.
Roane Hunter 49:06
If I can serve, I got some Bible knowledge. I'll show up for the prayer. Whatever, all that stuff is,
Ben Derrick 49:13
Camo breakfast?
Roane Hunter 49:14
yeah. I don't know. Whatever. Man. I check it off my list. Yeah. It's like, when, when when we talk about the fruit of the Spirit, right? The fruits of the Spirit. I mean, those things are not he just can't put your finger your hands around. And that's why we don't hear a lot I think about what is it looked like to be emotionally healthy, because it looks like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, self control, self control, and okay, so if I were to ask you, so Ben, tell me what gentleness looks like. I mean, you'd have one kind of thought about it. Yeah, I'd probably have another. You tell me about goodness. Even here's the big one. Boy, tell me tell me what love is, right? Because man, I today, we have such distorted views of what real love is because of movies, culture, music, all the stuff that's gotten commingled in with our bad theology, terrible preaching, and what we're told, and we don't really know. And so it's a problem. And so like this list, is, is in some ways, it's very practical, because I can't put my hands around these kind of existential character, qualities, whatever they are. So I'll just memorize some more Bible.
Ben Derrick 50:44
So final question for this episode. So we're running short on time. Let's say the listeners found themselves like, oh, yeah, right on. Yes, I've been there. I know what you're describing. How, how do they convince themselves to reengage to find a healthy helper?
Roane Hunter 51:00
Yeah, I think just just the want to, I mean, like, if you're listening to this podcast, there's, there's some want to there, right? There's willingness, always love Dallas Willard, you know, I always said, you just got to be willing to be willing, I don't know how, I don't have a plan. But man, I'm willing. Right? And so just that is huge. And I think the fact is that, you know, always I'm gonna be involved in church, and so many of the people that I've run across the men that that God has put into my life, they've come through church. And so I would say, there are others out there that, that kind of think and feel the way that you do, you just don't know it. Because there's nobody really talking about this. But it you know, you got to sometimes you have to put yourself out there, which is part of your growth, you may have to initiate, you know, asking somebody to go to breakfast, or, you know, hey, can you meet me for coffee? Let's, let's have a conversation, and kind of figure out, you know, where's that guy coming from? Tell your story? Right? We're scared to do that. But I mean, that's kind of what the gospel is, I think, is the good news of I once was lost and now I'm found.
Ben Derrick 52:18
Yeah. I love your advice there. I think I would just say as well that pursuing the person in a position might not be the most appropriate first move. But looking around and finding people that are like what you want to be in your healthy versions of who you want to be finding those people in initiating a conversation, developing confidence and asking those two questions that we leave in our childhood? Will you come out and play? And can you help? Oh, yeah, if we could convince more people to start asking those questions to each other? Will you go on an adventure with me? Where stories are shared and told all the time? And can you help me? Can you help me figure out I'm having a lot of trouble with my teenage son? Yeah, and I know that you've raised two teenagers, can you help me? You know, we often say it's a person telling another person where to find bread.
Roane Hunter 53:13
Oh yeah. It's like, you know, we, we talked about, you know, the guy down in the hole, and the guy that walks by, and he's yelling up, you know, help me out of this hole, I can't get out. I'm stuck. And one guy says, Hang on, I'll be right back. And he comes back with a, you know, a book on getting out of a hole and throws it in there. And the guy is like, this doesn't help. And then the next guy comes by and he's like, help get me out of the hole and guy goes, Hang on, I'll be right back and you know, comes back and he's got some hiking boots, and he throws him down the hole and keeps going and he's like, Wait, this isn't gonna help me. I got boots on. And then the next guy comes by and he's yelling help. I'm stuck in this hole in this guy looks in the hole hears him yelling, and this guy just jumps down in the hole with him. And the guy's like, What? What? What never been stuck in the hole. And the guy looks at him and says yeah, yeah, we are, however, have been here before and I know the way out.
Ben Derrick 54:20
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